It seems like the U.K. may have a better Covid strategy after all

[Warhertisuff]

... at least since the emergence of Delta. I generally supported the restrictions before last summer, but thought that opening up in July was sensible. It's too early to tell
for sure, but at the moment it looks like the right call.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59378849

One final point to think about overnight.

Health is holistic. Never underestimate the impact of stress on the immune system.

Masks have a positive psychological role to play.

Throughout the pandemic there's been concern for the economy. Doubt it helps to lose the grey pound.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/22/over-60s-cut-social-mixing-selfish-public-shunning-face-masks/

But some, like Austria, are hamstrung by low uptake of the primary course. You can’t boosted the unvaxxed, and Austria has a lot of them.

Vaccine bookings in Austria have shot up since the mandatory vaccination announcement.

Do they have a massive waiting list of people with serious illnesses and cancer patients on the waiting lists?

This is an interesting chart.

Just 4% of 16 to 24 year olds have no measureable level of antibodies.

Look at where we were last December. Thats madness.

[quote Chessie678]@Tealightsandd
Like China? The last story I read about China was about the Chinese government harvesting organs from living “donors” in prison camps (primarily from ethnic minority groups). Dread to think how they actually suppressed covid.

I’d take human rights over civic mindedness any day.[/quote]
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Human rights in the UK?

We have a public health housing and homeless emergency. People - increasing numbers are left to die on the streets (one man died literally outside The Houses of Parliament a year or so ago). The average age of death on the streets is 40 something. Meanwhile we have empty homes bought up by absent overseas investors who don't even let them out.

Then there's our appalling treatment of the disabled - condemned by the United Nations.

Linked to that the failed and cruel policies of austerity. Associated with tens of thousands of deaths.

Our COVID policy. 1000s a week dying an avoidable death - with many more left to suffer the health and financial consequences of Long COVID.

The poor, the disabled, and some minority ethnic communities have been hit disproportionately. Despite this, apparently the government sees no need to follow WHO advice on Vaccine Plus mitigation measures.

Masks might not help everyone but it all makes a (welcome difference) and, unlike lockdown, it's a very easy thing to do (minority of exemptions aside).

We can't take the moral high ground.

@RedToothBrush

I'm a bit crap with charts. Is that chart showing no change for 16-24s since last year or have I misunderstood?

If so, why do you think that is?

16-18s only very recently approved for second vaccine? Low take up in that age group? Something else?

It's definitely past my bedtime. I'll leave you all to it, but perhaps (hopefully/ the T cell (and B cell?) Immunity will help as much/instead/more than antibodies?

You have misunderstood, @Tealightsandd. The graph on the right is the bit in a dotted line box on the left graph enlarged so you can see it more clearly.

Last December 90% of the population had no measurable antibodies (except the 16-24s where it was 80%). Currently, it is the opposite, only approx 10% of people don't have measurable antibodies.

We can't take the moral high ground.

Actually, yes, Teaslight, we absolutely can take the moral high ground where a country like China is concerned.

You are sitting here in the UK, voicing criticisms (some of them perfectly justified) about the government in the UK.

In China, you would literally not be allowed to do this.

The Chinese government censors all online contents, shuts down any kind of dissent, and throws people into jail for disagreeing with or criticizing official policy. Their policies in places like Xinjiang are now attracting words like "genocide."

Living out in Asia, I have several friends who have left China and HK in the last few years and are now terrified about what is going to happen with their relatives who are still there.

There is absolutely nothing doing done in the UK which even remotely compares with the human rights situation in China, and you make yourself look incredibly unaware of your privileges and just plain bloody stupid by even trying to compare the two.

You are making me really, really angry now.

Please do not write any more posts trivializing abuses of human rights undertaken in the People's Republic of China.

I bloody knew this would happen, by the way.

As one country after another is forced to admit COVID into its borders and only China is left clinging on to its COVID-free status, the COVID Zero people will wind up going full-on tankie, dropping little hints that maaaaaybee China isn't quiiiiite as bad as people make out....

Yes, China really is as bad as people make out.
Talk to some people who've fled China and HK, if you don't believe me.

I'm French and moved to the UK during the pandemic.
The restrictions in France were severe and I was happy of the freedom here in the UK I won't lie.
But when you compare the results...
And the numbers don't even tell you the whole story.
Twice as many cases in France when I checked earlier this year, less death, when in comparison things kept running (face to face appointments with your doctors all along the pandemic, here I'm sick for a month, after 4 phone appointments finally convinced the GP for a face to face appointment : lung infection, antibiotics... ), schools stayed open...

The most important thing to keep in mind is, however you manage the pandemic, how good is your health system is how good your country will manage.
You cannot make up for not enough hospital beds, not enough staff, not enough infrastructures.

European countries with best results simply have a better health care which often only means they put more money into health that's all. Like Germany does. Like France does. Like most of Europe does compared to the UK.

I was shocked when a nurse at the surgery told me that if I was obtaining steroids and antibiotics in France it's because there we pay, when here in the UK it's free! All Western European Countries have a tax funded health care. I never paid a single medication in France. I couldn't say the same here. In France, you can access both private and public health care, the cost of the private consultation only will be the extra of what a public consultation would be (and usually very affordable) so you have a real choice.

I find it very sad that the NHS has some sort of national cult here and is not ever challenged. There are so many health care systems that also are tax funded (free for the patient) but with better results.

It really shouldn't be seen as a race. It's a global pandemic.

Well yes. Except for some this doesn’t apply to U.K. there we must know it’s at bottom with entrenched negativity.

I also agree User re China and minimising harms there. Although going by a post from one poster if you don’t want China style lockdown you ‘want deaths’.

It’s quite warped and I appreciate posters who can be more positive and balanced.

@RedToothBrush

This is an interesting chart.

Just 4% of 16 to 24 year olds have no measureable level of antibodies.

Look at where we were last December. Thats madness.

This is interesting the bump in October is intriguing

What happened for it to effect those age groups? and good to see antibodies went up

Also wondering why chart is t reversed so it’s how many with antibodies but small point

@SemynonA

I'm French and moved to the UK during the pandemic. The restrictions in France were severe and I was happy of the freedom here in the UK I won't lie. But when you compare the results... And the numbers don't even tell you the whole story. Twice as many cases in France when I checked earlier this year, less death, when in comparison things kept running (face to face appointments with your doctors all along the pandemic, here I'm sick for a month, after 4 phone appointments finally convinced the GP for a face to face appointment : lung infection, antibiotics... ), schools stayed open...

The most important thing to keep in mind is, however you manage the pandemic, how good is your health system is how good your country will manage.
You cannot make up for not enough hospital beds, not enough staff, not enough infrastructures.

European countries with best results simply have a better health care which often only means they put more money into health that's all. Like Germany does. Like France does. Like most of Europe does compared to the UK.

I was shocked when a nurse at the surgery told me that if I was obtaining steroids and antibiotics in France it's because there we pay, when here in the UK it's free! All Western European Countries have a tax funded health care. I never paid a single medication in France. I couldn't say the same here. In France, you can access both private and public health care, the cost of the private consultation only will be the extra of what a public consultation would be (and usually very affordable) so you have a real choice.

I find it very sad that the NHS has some sort of national cult here and is not ever challenged. There are so many health care systems that also are tax funded (free for the patient) but with better results.

Well said. I was musing over this with my DDs yesterday. They wanted to know how the German health system is so different from the NHS when it’s also tax funded in a similar way (ie contributions according to how much you earn). I couldn’t tell them what it is that makes the difference! The NHS is a lot less unique than most people believe.

Well said. I was musing over this with my DDs yesterday. They wanted to know how the German health system is so different from the NHS when it’s also tax funded in a similar way (ie contributions according to how much you earn). I couldn’t tell them what it is that makes the difference! The NHS is a lot less unique than most people believe.

Does the German health system provide the same service for everyone regardless of their income ? Or is it a tiered service like here so if you have enough money or private health insurance ( often a work place perk ) , you can get a better service for some things other than emergency medicine ?
Also people have mentioned how popular homeopathy is in Germany, is this provided by the tax funded healthcare system ?

@BoredZelda

not necessarily basic common sense and most don't wear properly , change them enough etc plus you will always have some who Cannot wear them

Of course, you have data to back that up?

I love how people are arguing about the efficacy. The fact is, they prevent deaths. Even if that number is one, wouldn’t you do it?

the fact is, they prevent deaths

There isn’t any evidence that proves that statement. Robust research just isn’t available, as it’s impossible to control the variables sufficiently.

We pay less per head for health care than most in Western Europe. Then complain about the state of health care in the uk wondering why. Then still complain when taxes go up. The health care we want is just not achievable on the amount per head we pay for it in the uk. And thats a lot of the reason we are in this mess in the first place.

I did see something about the number of deaths we should have had based on socio-economic demographics and hospital bed provision. It painted a picture of NHS staff going so far above and beyond that they were effectively performing near miracles.

Its unsustainable and untenable. And it will unravel.

I still think we should all be wearing masks especially in shops , I wear one all day at work and asthmatic (tho mildl) and it really hasn't bothered me at all I have more problem wearing visors, and I think masks are going to help in keeping us from ending up like Europe, whether we have got anything right is hard to say probably with thr vaccines yes, why anyone has a problem having one is beyond me especially care workers , Boris had so many people telling him different things hard for him to get it right damned whatever he did

This is interesting the bump in October is intriguing

What happened for it to effect those age groups? and good to see antibodies went up

Simple answer. Waning kicking in.

Its notable that immunity dips in almost all age groups (keep in mind that clinically vulnerable and front line staff will have vaccines earlier across all age groups).

You then see boosters kicking in for the oldest age groups. The age 50 group carries on briefly losing immunity together with the 40 year age band. These two age groups were particularly affected by school outbreak because of their children - you see immunity increase at the point the October outbreak peaks. Then you have half term and immunity in these age groups starts to drop again.

Hence why there has been an announcement about boosters for over 40s I guess.

The effect of boosters is clear as day.

The pattern in the younger groups with the lowest vaccine uptake is interesting but i also think you can see how 2nd doses and first doses in the 16 - 18 year old group are playing out along with cases in lower age groups generally.

@user1477391263

We can't take the moral high ground.

Actually, yes, Teaslight, we absolutely can take the moral high ground where a country like China is concerned.

You are sitting here in the UK, voicing criticisms (some of them perfectly justified) about the government in the UK.

In China, you would literally not be allowed to do this.

The Chinese government censors all online contents, shuts down any kind of dissent, and throws people into jail for disagreeing with or criticizing official policy. Their policies in places like Xinjiang are now attracting words like "genocide."

Living out in Asia, I have several friends who have left China and HK in the last few years and are now terrified about what is going to happen with their relatives who are still there.

There is absolutely nothing doing done in the UK which even remotely compares with the human rights situation in China, and you make yourself look incredibly unaware of your privileges and just plain bloody stupid by even trying to compare the two.

You are making me really, really angry now.

Please do not write any more posts trivializing abuses of human rights undertaken in the People's Republic of China.

Spot on 🙌🏻

Does the German health system provide the same service for everyone regardless of their income ?

Yes. Some people do have private insurance but back when I still lived there (and this was nearly 20 years ago) switching to private was actually a money saving exercise as private insurance cost young, healthy people less than the state health insurance did.

Also people have mentioned how popular homeopathy is in Germany, is this provided by the tax funded healthcare system ?

I believe so if you find a GP who supports it. And other alternatives. I remember being utterly baffled when I went to the GP with a sore throat that just wouldn’t go away and he started talking about my yin and yang and how I needed more ‘warming’ food!

I think other countries in Europe have wonderful healthcare systems.

I’m very envious for example of how in France every women sees a physio after giving birth.

If this discussion is now about who has the best healthcare system then we’re winning no prizes there.

And yes the fact that the NHS is so mismanaged and underfunded was probably one of the reasons we had to have such long lockdowns.

I do think we’ve faced an onslaught of cases and the NHS has done incredibly in that situation

I do if we will move the goalposts on 6 months soon for boosters.

I am due my booster around Christmas time. In fact I am delaying it a week or so precisely because of the time of year.

A fair number of over 40s will be in the same boat as me and may also chose to delay it. That's not brilliant for Xmas mixing.

Many over 40s are like me with school age kids. We haven't actually had Covid in house yet so waning immunity is a concern. Although thankfully the oldies are all boosted.

www.frenchentree.com/living-in-france/healthcare/doctors-fees-to-rise-in-2017/

France has a system of paying a fee for a consultation (I don't know whether there are any exemptions.

According to statista.com, the % of GDP for health in France was 11.1% in 2019

By contrast

"Public healthcare spending as share of GDP in the United Kingdom (UK) 2000-2020. In 2020, the annual spending on public healthcare in the United Kingdom (UK) accounted for 10.43 percent of GDP."

and

"In 2020, Germany spent 12.5 percent of its GDP on healthcare. The total expenditure on health as a percentage of GDP has increased since 1980."

In the UK, we don't vote for parties that aim to spend more on health and education,, we vote for parties that say they will cut taxes (and probably therefore aim to spend less on health).

In the UK, we don't vote for parties that aim to spend more on health and education,, we vote for parties that say they will cut taxes (and probably therefore aim to spend less on health).

It's madness. It's something I will never ever understand.