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It seems like the U.K. may have a better Covid strategy after all

834 replies

Warhertisuff · 23/11/2021 07:06

... at least since the emergence of Delta. I generally supported the restrictions before last summer, but thought that opening up in July was sensible. It's too early to tell
for sure, but at the moment it looks like the right call.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59378849

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Awomanwalksintoabar · 23/11/2021 13:07

Wow, why so patronising all of a sudden, @Lilifer?! Look, it’s by no means a truism to say that by the end of the winter everyone will be recovered, vaccinated or dead. He’s trying to impress on people how rife the virus is, so they decide to get vaccinated. Loads of people haven’t had it. He’s telling them they’ll get it this winter, vaccinated or not. I dunno what else to say to you, but if you’re going to be PA when I’m being perfectly nice, I’d rather you didn’t reply. HTH.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 23/11/2021 13:11

Or you could put them on unpaid leave, keep their jobs open and they claim benefits or get temporary jobs.

The point was that employers could pay them with far less hassle and the benefits system would buckle under the weight of all the new applications - which it did anyway, in parts.

That and it would fuck up taxation, existing benefits etc far less. Giving the majoroity of people a smoother financial ride.

user1497207191 · 23/11/2021 13:12

@ancientgran

Businesses have had support to keep going.

Lots havn't had anywhere near enough support. Furlough was the benefit of the employee, not the business, who still had to pay the employers NIC, paid holidays and pension contributions etc. for nothing in return.

For the business owners who qualified for grants (don't forget over 3 million were excluded from support!), it was based on profit, not turnover, so 80% of profit was often nowhere near paying the ongoing costs (i.e. rent, rates, utilities, security, subscriptions, maintenance, professional fees, equipment/vehicle leases, etc), so many needed to take on debt just to pay their bills.

I.e. a small business with £100k turnover, £50k direct costs of sales (goods and wages) and £25k of fixed overheads made a "profit" of £25k pre covid. If they qualified, they got £20k of SEISS grant, but they still had £25k of fixed costs, so were already £5k short, and had nothing at all to cover their own "wages". So basically, their staff were OK with 80% of normal wages for doing nothing, but the owners themselves ended up with nothing and were £5k more in debt!

I have a couple of small B&B clients who simply gave up and got minimum wage job in supermarkets/delivery just to get an income because the support grants, furlough etc just covered their staff wages and building overheads, and they'd literally have no money to feed and cloth themselves otherwise!

The business support really was a badly conceived "scatter gun" approach that left huge numbers of small businesses and freelancers without any meaningful support other than going onto universal credit. Whereas furlough meant most workers had a safety net (for themselves not their employer) of 80% of income, plus the ability to go and get other work meaning their incomes were actually a lot higher than pre covid for doing similar (or less) work/hours.

Platax · 23/11/2021 13:13

That graph is too simple. It just shows number of deaths, and makes no mention of the actual population of each country. Any country with a higher population is likely to have a higher number of deaths. The countries with low populations, will have low numbers.

Do you have a similar graph showing deaths as a percentage/proportion of total population for each country???

@sourcherie posted it less than 10 minutes after posting the first graph.

sashagabadon · 23/11/2021 13:14

I too agree that a "heavy suppression then release strategy" is just a very poor strategy and just results in a bigger worse correction and I think that is possibly playing a role in Eastern Europe particularly at the moment.

This is the case for literally anything you suppress too much not just viruses - it could be that GC opinions, Brexit discussion, children's sitting quietly in assembly; air under pressure - literally anything at all really.
Once you release the pressure (and you can't sustain it for ever), out it all comes!

GoldenOmber · 23/11/2021 13:17

How do you know that there wasn’t an alternative?

What would that alternative look like? Eliminate it - but it’s widespread across the world, we can’t eliminate it at this point. Close off all borders and isolate ourselves until… when? And to what impact on our food, supply chains, welfare? Or… do what? Keep severe restrictions in place indefinitely to keep cases low?

Yes our government are a shambling mass of idiot charlatans who could not organise a pissup in a brewery. But that doesn’t mean that a better government would be able to come up with a “covid never kills anybody and it all just goes away” plan. Some things are not within the power of governments to do.

herecomesthsun · 23/11/2021 13:30

How couls things have been improved?

How about opening up, but encouraging moderate restrictions (like wearing masks, preferably effective ones, in indoor crowded places)?

And explaining clearly that the "Freedom Day" narrative was a misunderstanding?

And continuing to encourage outdoor rather than indoor activities, where possible?

And keeping masks on public transport and in pharmacies (well, we still have them in ours)

And emphasising that we are not actively wanting people to go and mingle and get covid?

Lots of issues too around the messaging about vaccines for 12-15s, and the organisation of the roll out.

And improving access to boosters further would be a great thing.

But yes, we now are getting quite a few boosters into vulnerable people and this is really going to help over the winter.

MarshaBradyo · 23/11/2021 13:31

@Platax

That graph is too simple. It just shows number of deaths, and makes no mention of the actual population of each country. Any country with a higher population is likely to have a higher number of deaths. The countries with low populations, will have low numbers.

Do you have a similar graph showing deaths as a percentage/proportion of total population for each country???

@sourcherie posted it less than 10 minutes after posting the first graph.

I think excess deaths is a better measure due to difference in reporting systems
user1497207191 · 23/11/2021 13:33

@sashagabadon

I too agree that a "heavy suppression then release strategy" is just a very poor strategy and just results in a bigger worse correction and I think that is possibly playing a role in Eastern Europe particularly at the moment.

This is the case for literally anything you suppress too much not just viruses - it could be that GC opinions, Brexit discussion, children's sitting quietly in assembly; air under pressure - literally anything at all really.
Once you release the pressure (and you can't sustain it for ever), out it all comes!

I agree, and I think the lockdowns in the UK went on for far too long.

There were days when the daily deaths were in single figures which shows we were suppressing covid too much and doing untold damage to the economy, mental health, physical health etc for no obvious reason. It's not as if we were ever going to eradicate covid and have long term tiny death rates as you can't do that unless you have proper closed borders (with no exemptions) which was never going to happen in the UK. It was different in places like NZ and even Isle of Man, where they had proper strict border controls/restrictions and real limitations as to people entering/leaving their islands, mostly due to the small population and very limited number of boats/planes so control was possible.

We really should have been relaxing the restrictions a lot sooner and trying to keep a relatively steady number of infections, hospitalisations and deaths, rather than lockdowns which went on too long meaning infection and death rates were artificially far too low, and then having new peaks again when restrictions were relaxed.

That's why I think things are working out OK at the moment, with infection rates broadly flat lining, as are hospitalisations and deaths. If we can keep things level for the next couple of months, I think we'll avoid any new restrictions and once we're over the risk of an out of control Winter surge, I think we're really going to over covid (subject to any new variants).

Emilyontmoor · 23/11/2021 13:38

Also protests and riots are a good indication too of public mood. Of the mood amongst certain very specific demographics, including those most vulnerable to conspiracy theories. Have you witnessed the anti lockdown protests because I have. Mostly men either 20s or 50s, not exactly oozing intelligence and charisma, a lot of six packs of Stella and barely restrained aggression involved and bearing bits of cardboard scrawled with bad spelling. On one occasion they finished their planned route then marched past Buckingham Palace, yelling abuse at anyone wearing a mask, up to Hyde Park and then back down Buckingham Palace Road, basically in ever decreasing circles like headless chickens. And all having to be patrolled at great expense by armed police and helicopters. Two million of all ages and demographics marching peacefully against war or Brexit it is not, and certainly not in any way representative of the wider public.

herecomesthsun · 23/11/2021 13:38

@MarshaBradyo

Yep!

This is so silly

U.K. numbers high - laughing stock usual rubbish

Germany etc high - U.K. bad for talking about it and why it might be, wrt strategy

At no point say anything positive about U.K.

I hope we’ve got it right so no lockdown, as much as the few keep calling for it the majority will be relieved

No, it goes

UK numbers high - all part of a Cunning Plan

Germany etc high - woo hoo stupid Johnny Foreigner, the Brits got it right as per usual.

Chessie678 · 23/11/2021 13:39

@ancientgran
If people had been put on unpaid leave and paid a job seeker's level of benefits, that would have fundamentally altered the structure of the economy. If you usually make £40k and then that suddenly reduced to (say) £15k, it is very likely that you would default on your mortgage payments and financing etc. You could get a credit crunch type scenario . 9 million were on furlough at one point. How many of those could have met their financial commitments and kept their home on benefits? Furlough matched the level of payments people received to their previous income such that most of them would have been able to keep paying their bills. At any one time a relatively small number of people lose their job or become unable to pay their mortgage / rent etc. for some other reason and the economy overall can cope with that but the economy cannot cope with millions of people being in that position at the same time.

It likely was unfair on an individual level. If you lost your job just before covid struck, you could have been left on benefits throughout it, whereas if you had kept your job and then been put on furlough you make 80% of your normal pay. But the point was to keep the economy relatively stable on a macro level for both businesses and individuals.

As pp said, making employers responsible for making the payments worked from an administrative perspective because employers already have infrastructure to pay their employees. It meant people got money relatively quickly and reliably. The government would have really struggled to administer benefits payments for that number of people as quickly and people would likely have been left without money.

As I say, I don't think it was necessarily the optimal or fairest way to do it but then it was set up extremely quickly (which was crucial) and largely achieved its objectives as far as I can see. There was always going to be massive economic damage due to lockdowns and big shifts in e.g. employment patterns but I think it would have been worse without furlough (and without furlough people wouldn't have tolerated lockdowns anyway).

MarshaBradyo · 23/11/2021 13:39

@Emilyontmoor

Also protests and riots are a good indication too of public mood. Of the mood amongst certain very specific demographics, including those most vulnerable to conspiracy theories. Have you witnessed the anti lockdown protests because I have. Mostly men either 20s or 50s, not exactly oozing intelligence and charisma, a lot of six packs of Stella and barely restrained aggression involved and bearing bits of cardboard scrawled with bad spelling. On one occasion they finished their planned route then marched past Buckingham Palace, yelling abuse at anyone wearing a mask, up to Hyde Park and then back down Buckingham Palace Road, basically in ever decreasing circles like headless chickens. And all having to be patrolled at great expense by armed police and helicopters. Two million of all ages and demographics marching peacefully against war or Brexit it is not, and certainly not in any way representative of the wider public.
This is very U.K. centric

Many riots happening across world due to increased pressures

Meecrowavay · 23/11/2021 13:44

Boris, is that you? Grin

I really hope it's right and think this makes a lot of sense - re Delta at least. Just have to keep our fingers crossed there are no troublesome variants.

sashagabadon · 23/11/2021 13:45

One of the most lockdowned cities in the world is Melbourne. And that is in a “zero Covid” country until very recently. That’s a paradox isn’t it or maybe an irony?
Lockdowned for months to maintain a zero Covid status so they don’t have to implement lockdowns Confused
No wonder they’ve been rioting there.
Australia is looking at vaccine mandates even for children in Victoria I think. I think that is utterly shocking. Give me bumbling Boris any day.

user1497207191 · 23/11/2021 13:45

@Chessie678

As I say, I don't think it was necessarily the optimal or fairest way to do it but then it was set up extremely quickly (which was crucial) and largely achieved its objectives as far as I can see. There was always going to be massive economic damage due to lockdowns and big shifts in e.g. employment patterns but I think it would have been worse without furlough (and without furlough people wouldn't have tolerated lockdowns anyway).

Trouble was that, yes, it needed to be set up quickly, but went on for nearly 18 months, so there was plenty of time to "fine tune" furlough and the other business support schemes to give proper support for the 3 million excluded and to put counter measures in to stop the abuse (i.e. people claiming furlough from Job A but getting a new Job B with never having any intention to return to Job A, just pocketing the cash). The fact that the Treasury/HMRC made no attempt to deal with the problems caused by the rushed introduction is the real failure. Why were the problems not identified and dealt with after 3, 6 or even 9 months?

RedToothBrush · 23/11/2021 13:49

'Doing well' to me isn't necessarily about how we compare to other countries, but how we do compared to the worst case scenario that could have occurred in the UK from the moment the pandemic hit.

I do think a lot of our deaths were essentially 'baked in' from the moment the pandemic started and are down to long term chronic issues that by the pandemic started we couldn't reverse, we could only minimise.

The idea that the UK could ever have had less deaths than Germany given the number of Intensive Care beds, and crucially the staff for them, we had before the pandemic seems a crazy notion.

The idea that we could have less deaths than places in Europe which didn't have such extremes of poverty also seems a crazy idea. We know poverty is linked directly to life expectancy and poorer health.

It was about keeping our inevitable excess deaths down. And that includes going forward over the next 5 to 10 years via indirect health issues too. The UK's position means we have to seriously factor in how another lockdown might impact health outcomes related to poverty and other health issues every bit as much as related directly to covid itself.

If we have managed to stop another lockdown thats a massive thing. Its not one thats easily measurable nor quantifiable so people tend to dismiss it and do the rather more simplistic thing of comparing us to our nearest neighbours.

We have definitely prevented a lot of deaths from covid that would have occurred if we hadn't had lockdowns and vaccinations. Thats our success. Again something thats difficult to quantify. Instead we frame ourselves as failing because we've had more than elsewhere rather than based on the metrics of what our worse case scenario was likely to be based on our socio-economic demographics versus the metrics of another country's unique and different socio-economic demographics. It might well show some surprisingly things.

The pandemic isn't over. If Europe is still to go into another wave with the German health minister warning about 'we will all either be vaccinated, recovered or dead' in the context of delta and low vaccine uptake you need to see that as an admission that Germany is at risk of having a really big problem including deaths. Deaths that in the uk in comparible socio-economic lines have already happened.

As its been said and ignored from the beginning, you can't really judge overall how anyone has done until a few years down the line. It might well yet prove to be the case that places who had higher cases for earlier variants have better outcomes for the unvacinated than the unvaccinated who get Delta - thus your vaccination rates and acquired immunity later in the pandemic become more crucial in terms of life expectacy. Or to put it another way; if the first wave mainly only killed the most vulnerable but Delta is capable of killing a lot more younger people then it has a different impact on life expectancy. 10 people aged 80 who would ordinarily die at age 84 lose 40 years of life between them. 1 person who dies at age 40 and 9 people who die at age 80 would ordinarily die at age 84 loses 56 years of life. (This isn't being ageist in terms of saying 80 year old people are worth less than a 40 year old - its pointing out that when we measure the effectiveness of health interventions we have to consider it from a number of perspectives and how it is measured and how that impacts society as a whole. Which deaths are ultimately more preventable is a key question).

It is very conceiveable that what we may see when we can look back properly in retrospect is that country x has excess deaths which are much higher in the elderly but country y has much higher levels of excess deaths in younger people purely because of when they got hit hard by covid and what their vaccination rates were. In theory deaths in older elderly and more vulnerable populations are harder to prevent than deaths of younger and healthier people especially if they occur after vaccines have become available.

I think we could have done a lot better. I also think we have done well in a lot of respects given the hand we started playing with which gave us less options and choices and less chance of 'winning' to begin with.

I think to say we haven't done well does a massive disservice to NHS and care home staff who have worked tireless and without them putting in all those extra unsung hours we would have done a lot worse. We have done well be of things like training investment and staffing and logistics which do to a degree go back to government level whether we want to admit this or not. We do have skills and experience that other countries don't for one reason or another and that equally shouldnt be over looked.

We've performed well on the research and development side of things both in terms of vaccinations and drugs but also other best practice treatments which arent as glamorous or headline attracting. Given our bed levels a lot more people should have died than have.

herecomesthsun · 23/11/2021 13:49

@Leftbutcameback

I've also noticed more people wearing masks recently - I've been on public transport in London and at football matches and it's definitely increased over the last two months.
That's good to hear.
Delatron · 23/11/2021 13:49

Agree that suppression then release is the worse strategy. Thankfully we’ve realised that and have moved on.

This is why the government is not going to ‘plan b’ we are where we expected to be right now (in fact we haven’t hit worse case models and models look better for Christmas).

I also agree that our lockdowns went on far too long and were far too damaging. We opened up too late in 2020. We should have taken advantage of summer to keep cases bubbling away at a low manageable level by allowing schools rather than keeping kids off then sending EVERYONE back to schools/Unis/offices at the same time in September. That was one of our biggest errors in stra

We learnt this year but I still think we should have had a shorter lockdown. And kids should have not had so much time off school. So damaging in many, many areas. I’ve said this before but history will not look back kindly on how we treated our children through this pandemic. It’s shocking.

Delatron · 23/11/2021 13:50

Strategy

GoldenOmber · 23/11/2021 13:51

How about opening up, but encouraging moderate restrictions (like wearing masks, preferably effective ones, in indoor crowded places)?

Why do you think this would work to suppress cases in England when it hasn’t achieved that in Scotland, Wales, NI, or at this point most of Western as well as Eastern Europe? Do you have special magic English masks inaccessible to the rest of us?

Iggly · 23/11/2021 13:52

We learnt this year but I still think we should have had a shorter lockdown. And kids should have not had so much time off school. So damaging in many, many areas. I’ve said this before but history will not look back kindly on how we treated our children through this pandemic. It’s shocking

It’s quite telling that our government is run by mainly men, with little thought to the impact on families, children and (mainly!) mums trying to shoulder the burden of school closures. They didn’t have anyone at the top table advocating for them.

MarshaBradyo · 23/11/2021 13:54

UK numbers high - all part of a Cunning Plan

Do you accept the CMO advised this yet? As he said it the way to go. Do you need quote or did you see it

ollyollyoxenfree · 23/11/2021 13:55

@GoldenOmber

How about opening up, but encouraging moderate restrictions (like wearing masks, preferably effective ones, in indoor crowded places)?

Why do you think this would work to suppress cases in England when it hasn’t achieved that in Scotland, Wales, NI, or at this point most of Western as well as Eastern Europe? Do you have special magic English masks inaccessible to the rest of us?

Masks reduce transmission. Saying "but in places where they're worn things are still bad" doesn't make sense.

They're not a magic fix, but they do make a difference and with little drawbacks when those who aren't exempt wear them (compared to other measures)

I have no idea why the UK specifically has this real issue with wearing them

MarshaBradyo · 23/11/2021 13:56

@Delatron

Agree that suppression then release is the worse strategy. Thankfully we’ve realised that and have moved on.

This is why the government is not going to ‘plan b’ we are where we expected to be right now (in fact we haven’t hit worse case models and models look better for Christmas).

I also agree that our lockdowns went on far too long and were far too damaging. We opened up too late in 2020. We should have taken advantage of summer to keep cases bubbling away at a low manageable level by allowing schools rather than keeping kids off then sending EVERYONE back to schools/Unis/offices at the same time in September. That was one of our biggest errors in stra

We learnt this year but I still think we should have had a shorter lockdown. And kids should have not had so much time off school. So damaging in many, many areas. I’ve said this before but history will not look back kindly on how we treated our children through this pandemic. It’s shocking.

Yes I always agree with this. Children have been treated very badly.