Austria unvaccinated lockdown

[MRex]

How is this expected to actually work in practice? I have only seen basic UK news articles, interested mostly to understand the practical implications.

Personal views without knowing detail: I simply don't see any way this can be achieved without infringing on personal freedoms of unvaccinated and vaccinated quite significantly. I'm very pro-vax in general and for covid, but I hope the UK doesn't start anything like this, seems like it would just have anyone digging their heels in and cause a lot of social unrest issues.

@EileenGC

The thing is, *@Sian73*, what are these people actually ‘banned’ from that they weren’t until now?

They can go to work, they can send their kids to school, they can go shopping and exercise - so people can be out and about and say it’s for one of the above reasons.

Many, many places in Europe already have what we call in German-speaking countries a 2G policy now - only vaccination or recovery gives you a Covid pass. So unvaccinated people weren’t able to go to restaurants or a concert or a football match or church or a museum before this mandate, anyway. It’s been this way for a couple of months.

The only places I can think of that they couldn’t access right now - and maybe could before - is beauty salons/hairdressers and gyms. My local gym has asked for proof of vaccination since June though, as they’re a private business and entitled to ask for whatever they like. So again, these people wouldn’t have been going to the gym anyway.

Eileen - this does not make it sound any better at all. The fact that you think it does is so much part of the problem. Those like you that think this is OK are enabling the beginnings of fascism and segregation.

You mention that the unvaccinated weren't able to go to church as if that is fine - what if you are a devote Catholic or whatever? If that was your lifeline?

You say that you can't go to the gym - for some people this is the same.

OK Germany includes recovery from Covid on the pass - that's something maybe.

But there are so many reasons to choose not to be vaccinated. What if (like my son) you are disabled and scared of the vaccine making your disability worse. You need to go the gym though to keep mobile and fit ...

I anticipate the cruel response to this - the lack of empathy - and understanding.

This vaccine is not a sure thing. It's not 100% definitely safe. There is so much grey that comes with this. We have to question. We have to be allowed to question and make our own decisions on what is best to do for our bodies.

Medicine used to be tailored to each individual - not dished out in a generic way to one and all.

It is not ok to force this vaccine onto everyone. Not OK at all.

Brilliant post from @Sian73 at 21.33.

@Sian73 I never once said that this is fine, so I don’t know where you got that idea from. It was on either this thread or another similar one running at the moment, where I said I actually don’t think this kind of segregating lockdown is a good thing. I have conflicting feelings about it because on one hand, I and my industry absolutely cannot close again this winter if a larger scale lockdown is introduced. It will be the end of us. On the other hand, I also agree 100% with this:

We have to be allowed to question and make our own decisions on what is best to do for our bodies.

I simply try to expose things as seen from here, where we have been living with these restrictions for a few months now.

I’m trying to explain that the media is kicking off now, but these things have been a reality for months. Everyone kicked off in August when France introduced Covid passes but why weren’t they aware other countries had started it in March? People don’t bother informing themselves on why these things seem ‘normal’ (should never be) for those of us living with these restrictions.

As it happens, I’m very devout and member of a faith which observes a specific day of the week as a holy day of rest. It is my choice to do so, but as a consequence I am effectively banned from a variety of jobs and activities that require physical presence or to be in work on that particular day. It’s my choice to observe this day, but I cannot expect to have the same opportunities as those around me who can work any day they want. And religious belief is a protected characteristic so should, in theory, not be discriminated against. The reality is, no one is going to change their requirements to allow me to eg apply for a job in different conditions than the others.

It’s a slippery slope, I agree. But it started a long time ago and nobody seemed bothered about it back then. Same with fascism which you mention, people didn’t think there was anything wrong with the ideology at the beginning and actively supported ‘change and initiative’. Then became the most vocal protesters when it finally clicked what atrocities were being committed in the name of it.

I find it incredibly depressing to see history repeating itself like this. It feels like no moral progress has been made since witches were burnt at the stake.

You divide society into the "clean" and the "unclean". You blame the "unclean" for whatever has gone wrong and whip up fear over the danger they pose. You restrict their freedom or outright persecute them. And sometimes you say - well if they just convert from their belief system they wouldn't be subject to this treatment so it's their choice.

The rationale seems stronger to people this time because it's "science" based and not religion based but I think it's exactly the same mentality behind it. People get scared and acquiesce in their government scapegoating a particular group and because they are not personally affected by the measures that group is subjected to and they do not agree with their beliefs they can shrug and go on with their lives.

And I say this as someone who is very pro-vaccination and all for strong public information campaigns to try to get people vaccinated.

I was concerned about lockdowns in part because I didn't want governments stripping away fundamental rights and freedoms to become normalised as part of governance and I think that fear was well-founded. You can see on this thread that people being denied the freedom to go the church / restaurants / the theatre etc. is no longer seen as a big deal by many.

England doesn’t have Covid passes yet so we’re not reacting as some countries have.

But generally I see a lot of posts saying they’d like them here, or pleased they have them elsewhere.

I’m pleased my (part of the) country has Covid passes, yes. Because there is provision for both vaccinated and unvaccinated - be it through choice or inability receive the vaccine. I would not be pleased if - whilst the situation was holding steady - a two tier division was introduced.

I was also not pleased when the first lockdown happened, but I saw why it was necessary. I was never at great risk from Covid - healthy early 20s, no contact with vulnerable or elderly people. But I stayed home for all the reasons we stayed home, although I didn’t actually have to, from a logical point of view. If a similar measure is introduced again I hope it would be because the situation has worsened and actions need to be taken so we don’t go backwards im this pandemic.

Like everybody else, I am tired of restrictions too. I wish we could just go back to 2019-levels of ‘freedom’.

I prefer the risk of having a vaccine to constant testing and repeated quarentine and could see the two tier system being a likely scenario even earlier this year. I accept others may have decided differently to me based on their circumstance/beliefs. But whatever our choices may have been, we all live with the consequences of it.

Like everybody else, I am tired of restrictions too. I wish we could just go back to 2019-levels of ‘freedom’.

Yep. Although I think the only way we’re going to get there is if people keep objecting to restrictions/vaccine passports.

Be careful about giving away bodily autonomy.

twitter.com/PopnMatters/status/1457655664927547399?s=20

Population Matters
@PopnMatters
#BigBaby is inflated and ready to spread the message that choosing a #smallfamily is one of the most powerful eco-actions individuals in the Global North can take. #COP26

To clarify im child free by choice. But how long do you think it will be before people are pressured into having less children or no children at all to save the planet

@Chessie678

I find it incredibly depressing to see history repeating itself like this. It feels like no moral progress has been made since witches were burnt at the stake.

You divide society into the "clean" and the "unclean". You blame the "unclean" for whatever has gone wrong and whip up fear over the danger they pose. You restrict their freedom or outright persecute them. And sometimes you say - well if they just convert from their belief system they wouldn't be subject to this treatment so it's their choice.

The rationale seems stronger to people this time because it's "science" based and not religion based but I think it's exactly the same mentality behind it. People get scared and acquiesce in their government scapegoating a particular group and because they are not personally affected by the measures that group is subjected to and they do not agree with their beliefs they can shrug and go on with their lives.

And I say this as someone who is very pro-vaccination and all for strong public information campaigns to try to get people vaccinated.

I was concerned about lockdowns in part because I didn't want governments stripping away fundamental rights and freedoms to become normalised as part of governance and I think that fear was well-founded. You can see on this thread that people being denied the freedom to go the church / restaurants / the theatre etc. is no longer seen as a big deal by many.

Gosh Chessie - this is it. Absolutely it. You've summed it up in a way I've never seen or read before.

It is burning witches at the stake. And everyone whose so called 'clean' standing around gawping and cheering.

@Chessie678

This is a post of mine from two and a half years ago. I posted it on a thread about social housing stigma but it has parallels here too.

ve just finished reading Witchfinders A Seventeenth Century English Tragedy.

The "witches" tried and hanged were not all women. Some were men.

One accused was an eight year old boy.

What most of them had in common was that they were poor. Yes poor. A lot of them were widows who needed what was known then as parish money to live. Elizabeth Clarke was an 84 year old one legged widow who was hanged. Many more were elderly. Neighbour turned against neighbour. Many resented their rates and parish money going to help these "wretches"

See any parallels? Because i do.

At the end of the book (although he does allude to it throughout) the author mentions how lack of liberty and welfare and political and economic uncertainty leads to this kind of climate.

We wouldnt get people persecuted for practising witchcraft now (although this still goes on in parts of the developing world) but we still get people persecuted for being poor/disabled etc.
Matthew Hopkins John Stearne and Sir Harbottle Grimston etc are long dead But some of their ideals are still very much alive.

There are parallels and its chilling

Despite the repeal of the Witchcraft Act in 1736, lynchings of English witches continued well into the 20th century, with the last recorded incident in 1945. Nor, in Gaskill's opinion, are we safe from a fresh outbreak. Witch-lynchings are endemic in the developing world (particularly in sub-Saharan Africa) where "poor and fearful people still associate misfortune with ill-will, and take remedial action". And without "peace and prosperity, liberty and welfare" there is, he thinks, every chance that the next generation in the West "might swerve off in an altogether more mystical and malevolent direction

Jesus...............reading that back now!!!!!!!

www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3640908/Copulating-with-the-devil.html

They didnt bother with a ducking stool with John Lowes They threw him in the moat at Framlingham Castle.

People were also persecuted for not following the "right religion" and Lowes was brave enough to speak out against the witchfinders.

Well it feels this way to me now Mercy

I’ve thought of more recent historical comparisons and not gone so far back as to think of witch hunts. But it’s much closer to that now I think.

I agree @Sian73 Makes me sad angry and disappointed

I'm double vaccinated, I've had Covid. I'm most definitely not in support of what's happening in Austria.

Last December, another MN user wrote this. I saved it because it was thought provoking:

*In fifty years time I suspect this will be remembered as the Great COVID Derangement. They’ll probably study it in schools: how politicians and people were gripped by a death spiral of irrational group think.

I actually think the emotions involved are very similar to religious fanaticism. Fear, hope of salvation by following sacred rules, hatred of non conformity, hatred of those who deny or question the sacred rules, outward signs of compliance and allegiance (crucifixes, masks), devoted respect for an elite caste of sacred lawgivers (priests, SAGE).

It appeals to something very primitive in human nature & gives meaning (through hatred of dissenters and fear and rule following) to people whose lives perhaps have been lacking in meaning until now.

Also strong resemblances to Fascism - the importance of the group, no divergence of opinion allowed, strong social enforcement of norms, hysterical praise of sacred caste (the NHS clapping!).

Religion played a useful social role in many ways. Without it humans are prone to grasp at substitutes - I think this is one. It’s a psychological phenomenon*

@middleager i remember that post.

Mercy, not sure who posted it, but it feels eerily close to the mark.

Yes it does

Great idea!

[quote MercyBooth]@Chessie678

This is a post of mine from two and a half years ago. I posted it on a thread about social housing stigma but it has parallels here too.

ve just finished reading Witchfinders A Seventeenth Century English Tragedy.

The "witches" tried and hanged were not all women. Some were men.

One accused was an eight year old boy.

What most of them had in common was that they were poor. Yes poor. A lot of them were widows who needed what was known then as parish money to live. Elizabeth Clarke was an 84 year old one legged widow who was hanged. Many more were elderly. Neighbour turned against neighbour. Many resented their rates and parish money going to help these "wretches"

See any parallels? Because i do.

At the end of the book (although he does allude to it throughout) the author mentions how lack of liberty and welfare and political and economic uncertainty leads to this kind of climate.

We wouldnt get people persecuted for practising witchcraft now (although this still goes on in parts of the developing world) but we still get people persecuted for being poor/disabled etc.
Matthew Hopkins John Stearne and Sir Harbottle Grimston etc are long dead But some of their ideals are still very much alive.

There are parallels and its chilling[/quote]

There are no parallels and it isn't "chilling", Mercy. Why on Earth would you suddenly draw parallels between unvaccinated people and witch trials when literally nobody has on this thread or, to my memory, on this board before? How silly.

We are simply living through a pandemic period. Calm down.

@Dishhh @MercyBooth
I agree with you Dishhh. Couldn’t quite believe what I was reading there! Mercy, I saw you on another thread with lots of capitals, shouting and saying you were going to lawyer up. You then misinterpreted one of my comments, and insinuated that I was privileged. I didn’t quite get that, as I certainly can’t afford a lawyer - can you?
Isn’t all this inflammatory language and the “chilling?” comparisons a form of coercion in itself?

It was always a strange twist, that people became afraid of the witches rather than being afraid of those who were killing them. Anyway, I see no parallels.

Thanks those who've answered the original OP. The different expectations of showing ID cards and the previous lockout from pubs and restaurants regardless may be what makes this "work" in the practical sense of identifying who is vaccinated. I doubt it'll last long before they switch to a more generalised lockdown, because work, school and household mixing cause the majority of spread anyway.