Mandatory vaccination

[amsadandconfused]

So I am not anti vac and have had my two doses and booster booked for next week. I do genuinely understand why a lot of my work colleagues are reluctant..Drs ,nurses ,carers etc . They are young people in their 20s/30s who are scared about the long term side effects ie infertility,blood disorders ..it’s very easy for people who are not in a job involving health care to be so critical of these lovely people .
Yes hepatitis B jab is mandatory for some but the hep jab has had many years of trials.
Can I ask everyone reading my post if you would be 100% happy if their 20 something children had this vaccine?

I am no fan of this government at all

But it's beyond incredulous that those commenting on the sheer pressure that the health and social care systems were under spring 2020 also argue against vaccines which would help ( not stop, help.....) alleviate that pressure
Jesus so down the rabbit hole

[quote FlorenciaFlora]I think there’s other things we need to be discussing instead of obsessing about vaccines that clearly don’t work that well. There’s several other factors that have led to people dying.This report is quite shocking and personally I’d like some assurances that these sorts of things aren’t happening anymore.

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press-release/2020/10/uk-older-people-in-care-homes-abandoned-to-die-amid-government-failures-during-covid-19-pandemic/[/quote]
Do you have a link to "vaccines not working that well"
Thanks.

@FlorenciaFlora

My 20 year old daughter is a carer and double jabbed. Her thought process was she would do whatever it took to protect those she looks after

No. I’m not having this.

The CQC report is very clear that around a third of staff were under pressure to apply DNRs without consent. Even more must have known about it considering they all work together.Was your daughter aware that this was happening? Did she report it? If not why not?

Perhaps she should find a different job.

Perhaps you should start a new thread about the DNR thing instead of shoehorning in an attack on the parent of a careworker who is talking about vaccination.

@FlorenciaFlora

What is the long term plan for when Nhs staff continue to get covid infections despite being jabbed?

Well if they do the evidence is that the illness is less severe lessening the risk of hospitalization.

So NHs staff will be back to work sooner. Or would you rather the NHS collapses totally?

@Hotcoffee10

Except the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission. It probably helps reduce transmission a small amount for a short time. It may increase infection by driving behaviour change (jabbed people more likely to socialise perhaps). Therefore mandating vaccination for carers is pointless. Why not leave it a choice but mandate twice weekly lateral flows for all? mRNA vaccines have never been used in the population before and there is no long term safety data especially about multiple doses which will be needed as protection wanes. AstraZeneca is no longer recommended for younger age groups because of the high number of associated deaths, it should not be offered as an alternative!

Do you have a (reputable) link to support your statement: "It probably helps reduce transmission a small amount for a short time"?

Because published, peer-reviewed studies showing 65-90% reduction of transmission need to be questioned if they are wrong.

Likewise the "may increase transmission by driving behaviour" statement. Any studies for that?

There are however, many (scientific, reputable) studies about LFTs "probably) showing up to 40% false negatives so that would be a pretty dodgy move if you were sending someone into a care setting. The 60% obviously is better than nothing, but still.

Do you also have a link to a recent study showing "a high number of deaths" due to AZ? It was 41 deaths out of 9,000,000 doses earlier this year (UK) (still to be ascertained if caused directly from AZ) (and of course, as the incidence of spontaneous blood clot + death in the general population is, in any case, far far higher than 41 in every 9 million it will be difficult to say with any certainty that AZ was ever to blame) Do you have a more up to date study?

@Hotcoffee10

Except the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission. It probably helps reduce transmission a small amount for a short time. It may increase infection by driving behaviour change (jabbed people more likely to socialise perhaps). Therefore mandating vaccination for carers is pointless. Why not leave it a choice but mandate twice weekly lateral flows for all? mRNA vaccines have never been used in the population before and there is no long term safety data especially about multiple doses which will be needed as protection wanes. AstraZeneca is no longer recommended for younger age groups because of the high number of associated deaths, it should not be offered as an alternative!

Apart from the points raised by @PAFMO, is there any evidence to support the statement that the vax " may increase infection by driving behaviour change."? I have seen none.

@sleepwouldbenice

I am no fan of this government at all

But it's beyond incredulous that those commenting on the sheer pressure that the health and social care systems were under spring 2020 also argue against vaccines which would help ( not stop, help.....) alleviate that pressure
Jesus so down the rabbit hole

The pressure is mainly coming from large numbers of elderly people being admitted, not health care workers. Thankfully the booster campaign has begun and we’re starting to see a drop in hospital admissions in older age groups. That has nothing to do with mandates for hcps. You can be pro-vaccine and against them being mandatory.

So NHs staff will be back to work sooner. Or would you rather the NHS collapses totally?

You still have to isolate for 10 days, even if you have a mild infection.

You can be pro-vaccine and against them being mandatory

You can, but its a oft taken position by people with a long track record of being anti vax on this forum isn't it?

There are 56 million people in England, for example (I know not everyone on MN is based here) … 124,000 have died of (or with!) covid. That’s just over 2% of the population. How many within that group were very elderly, nobody lives forever.

I’m not minimising the distress this has caused and it’s awful to lose anyone regardless of age. But it’s worth thinking about these statistics.

Apart from the points raised by @PAFMO, is there any evidence to support the statement that the vax " may increase infection by driving behaviour change."? I have seen none

Risky shift phenomenon at group and individual level is well documented since at least the 60s. When seat belts were made compulsory the opponents often cited it, suggesting benefits of seat belts would be offset by riskier driving. In practice some people will take more risks, most continue as they did before.

Anecdotally the people I've seen go out clubbing and partying post vaccination are the same people who lived large before the pandemic. Most have just normalised a bit rather than rushing off to spreader events.

@C8H10N4O2

Apart from the points raised by @PAFMO, is there any evidence to support the statement that the vax " may increase infection by driving behaviour change."? I have seen none

Risky shift phenomenon at group and individual level is well documented since at least the 60s. When seat belts were made compulsory the opponents often cited it, suggesting benefits of seat belts would be offset by riskier driving. In practice some people will take more risks, most continue as they did before.

Anecdotally the people I've seen go out clubbing and partying post vaccination are the same people who lived large before the pandemic. Most have just normalised a bit rather than rushing off to spreader events.

The HPV vaccine has also been criticised in developing countries and not widely given because people think getting one will make girls more promiscuous. We know now how many women that line of thinking has killed.

@BigSandyBalls2015
It’s just over 0.2% of the population, not 2%.
Less than died of cancer, with a very different age profile.

@PAFMO

“Because published, peer-reviewed studies showing 65-90% reduction of transmission need to be questioned if they are wrong.”

According to this study into the Pfizer vaccine,

“ Effectiveness against infections declined from 88% (95% CI 86–89) during the first month after full vaccination to 47% (43–51) after 5 months.”

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02183-8/fulltext#%20

And this preprint suggests that reduction in protection against transmission also wanes:

“For Delta and BNT162b, reductions at 2 and 12 weeks were 50%(35-61%) and 24%(20-28%), respectively, and 24%(18-30%) and 2%(−2-6%) for ChAdOx1”

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264260v2.full-text

So, while the vaccine remains protective against serious illness/hospitalisation for the individual, the argument that it is providing protection for others is considerably weaker. Which is why mandating it for hcps makes little sense.

@FlorenciaFlora

My 20 year old daughter is a carer and double jabbed. Her thought process was she would do whatever it took to protect those she looks after

No. I’m not having this.

The CQC report is very clear that around a third of staff were under pressure to apply DNRs without consent. Even more must have known about it considering they all work together.Was your daughter aware that this was happening? Did she report it? If not why not?

Perhaps she should find a different job.

Seriously?

You don't have a sensible counter argument so you throw random smears suggesting a care worker is involved in illegal DNRs?

You don't even know if the person works in care homes or domiciliary but then you don't really care either do you? Anti vaxers never do.

I'm surprised they are making it mandatory. I didn't even know they could legally. Is it because it's a Public health issue?

The HPV vaccine has also been criticised in developing countries and not widely given because people think getting one will make girls more promiscuous. hmm We know now how many women that line of thinking has kille

Oh I saw that argument made in the UK as well. Anti vaxxers will use any argument, take any position it seems. The irony is where there are actual questions to ask and be answered on any new medication they are overwhelmed by the anti vax at any cost brigade.

@BigSandyBalls2015

There are 56 million people in England, for example (I know not everyone on MN is based here) … 124,000 have died of (or with!) covid. That’s just over 2% of the population. How many within that group were very elderly, nobody lives forever.

I’m not minimising the distress this has caused and it’s awful to lose anyone regardless of age. But it’s worth thinking about these statistics.

2% of 56,000,000 isn't 124,000.

I'm 31 and had no vaccinations. I am also questioning the long term affects and don't want to risk it.
There's a lot of sarcasm in this post "why wouldn't you have it?" People seem to imply you're lazy if you don't, but anyone that doesn't want it knows why, and if it doesn't feel right then it doesn't feel right. Your body, your rules!

@C8H10N4O2

You can be pro-vaccine and against them being mandatory

You can, but its a oft taken position by people with a long track record of being anti vax on this forum isn't it?

No. People have really strange ideas about what anti-vax actually means.

@BigSandyBalls2015 I think you mean 0.2%

I also would question the scientific and analytical skills of a doctor or nurse with a degree in medicine/closely related subject who cannot critically analyse medical data and give it more weight than Facebook propaganda. We have over 18 months of data plus trials to look at now and different vaccines available.

If that makes me nasty so be it. I also declined the services of a doctor who actually believed in homeopathy.

@bumbleymummy I am new-ish to MN, so I looked you up ( which I have never done with any other poster but your arguments were interesting) You have been arguing against even the MMR from 2009. You are an anti-vaxxer. Own it! :) .

People have really strange ideas about what anti-vax actually means

Ah bless.