Covid Child Mortality

[Warhertisuff]

A horrible topic I know, but one which parents have a right to be informed accurately about.

I've read that over 100 children have now died of Covid in the U.K. However, that doesn't seem to square with the stats I can find. The ONS data below suggests that there have been 14 deaths of children under 14 since February, and 4 school aged children under 14 since the start of autumn term. I appreciate the pandemic has been here since before last February but even so.... especially since infections in schools have only really skyrocketed
since summer half term and through into this term.

Obviously all child deaths are tragic, but in order to determine our response, we need to know whether deaths are as prevalent as other diseases such as meningitis or other causes such as traffic accidents, or whether we are talking another level of magnitude.

www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/dvc1470/age/wrapper/datadownload.xlsx

@DumplingsAndStew

The most vulnerable children have been eligible for the vaccine since the summer.

The most children known to be vulnerable. Do you realise there's a huge number of children - people - who don't know they have an underlying condition until it becomes a problem? My friend didn't know her 16 year old daughter had a heart condition, until she dropped dead. After this, her family were all tested and she and one of her young adult sons have a pacemaker, whereas another of her young adult sons had to have a heart transplant. Another friend didn't know she had an issue with her heart until she ended up late 30s, in hospital with a triple bypass and pacemaker fitted.

Many, many health conditions go unidentified and undiagnosed until too late.

Have you missed that our cases have been falling for weeks now

See attached details of an increase in our cases since last week. (Source: www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker )

Ok. The data shows that the majority of deaths in young people have had known underlying conditions. Note the use of the word ‘majority’ - there will still be some deaths in young people who seem otherwise healthy - as you say, they may have an undiagnosed condition though. This is the same for flu, rsv every year.

Yes, as I said earlier, cases in Scotland, Wales and Ireland have increased despite masks still being required.

And I specifically referred to England because the poster I was replying to mentioned England - see the part I quoted.

@containsnuts

I read 20% of people in intensive care are pregnant women. I wonder what happens to the babies and if/how it's recorded in terms of death or severe outcomes?

No that's 20% of people on ECMO machines. There are very few in the UK so I'd imagine pregnant women would be proritised

@bumbleymummy

Not minimising that there is a risk after vaccination but the risk is less than the risk of those things from Covid infection and if you get it through infection it is worse than through Vaccination. So if covid was under control in the UK and there was every chance not to get infected then yes it may be ok to risk infection rather than vaccination. However as the cases are so high it is near on impossible to avoid getting infected in the next 12 months. So logically the risk of covid is higher than the risk of vaccination. But vaccination is voluntary so you can make your own decision.

Not all vulnerable children have been vaccinated yet. You may be shocked to discover how many children are classed as vulnerable. They don't all look ill or likely to die in the next 20 years. SO while its easy to say only vulnerable children have died these are still unnecessary and premature deaths.

@bumbleymummy

And I specifically referred to England because the poster I was replying to mentioned England - see the part I quoted.

Yes you did, apologies.

Sadly, it isn’t ‘nonsense’ based on what the current definition of long covid actually includes.

This does somewhat depend on where you get your information from. For e.g., this study by Great Ormond Street hospital and UCL from September 2021 has found that 14% of teenagers who tested positive for covid experienced symptoms linked to the virus 15 weeks after infection. That’s at 15 weeks, not up to 15 weeks. Symptoms like headaches, fatigue and loss of smell might seem completely insignificant to you, but a teenager with headaches or fatigue for 15 weeks is not only in pain, but also not able to study to their full potential, they risk missing days of school, which could go on to affect their exam results if it continues, plus they’re not able to go out with friends which can be pretty vital for their mental health at that age. Plus being in pain for 15 weeks. You take them to the doctor who says, effectively, “sorry, we don’t know how to fix this, try watching and waiting.”

Loss of smell also affects taste and being able to eat. Food tastes “wrong”, and some kids stop eating or start to find eating very stressful, which of course is bad for their mental as well as physical health. So you take them to the doctor who again is unable to help (not through any fault of their own!) and you and your child are left to watch and wait.

I’m struggling to think of any parents who would think it’s acceptable for their kids to have to go through that (which is at the minor end of the scale) when it could be prevented or lessened. And it doesn’t help that 14% when infections are low is small and manageable, but 14% when cases are as high as they are in teenagers is, obviously, much higher in terms of actual numbers.

We have longer term data on effects after infection in children compared to effects after vaccination in children?

Well, exactly. And that data shows that serious complications/hospitalisations/PIMS are rare but don’t limit themselves to “only” affecting children with underlying conditions, that long covid is thought to affect 14% of teenagers who test positive for 15+weeks, and that 10,000 children have experienced long covid symptoms for over a year (and imaging that to be a stubbed toe or a bit of a runny nose is another minimising technique). The data on covid’s side doesn’t look hugely appealing, does it.

Link for the GOSH/UCL study
www.gosh.nhs.uk/news/first-findings-from-worlds-largest-study-on-long-covid-in-children/

I just looked up numbers of children aged 11 to 17 in the UK on Statista. Using their figures from 2019/2020, and the estimation used by many on here that 75% of them have had covid, the estimation by the gosh study that 14% of them may still be suffering 15 weeks later...

735,000

Nearly 3/4 of a million UK children are struggling with the effect of covid infection after 15 weeks.

Yet its argued that children aren't adversely affected by covid?

It's pretty rubbish how we treat kids. Putting it mildly.

@GreenLunchBox This was what I was referring to:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-58911647.
I just wondered what happens if the baby dies or is left with serious health problems whether it's recorded as covid related?

@containsnuts

20% of women admitted to ICU, not 20% of people.

So sorry to read , both here and on other threads, about your DC’s experiences @BewareTheLibrarians.

A large number of teenagers reported symptoms even though they had not tested positive forCOVID-19 and the researchers identified three factors that may explain this. One is that symptoms such as unusual tiredness are common in this age group generally. The second is that the timing of the survey, between March and May, coincided with the return of school following lockdown and a likely increase in general illnesses. The third factor is that, of those young people sent a survey, only 13% responded – it is possible that these respondents were more likely to have poor health than those who did not respond.

Also, isn’t it 14% more children in the control group mentioned symptoms than in the placebo group, rather than 14% of all children who had COVID? 67% reported ongoing symptoms in the covid group and 53% in the non-covid group.

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@containsnuts

20% of women admitted to ICU, not 20% of people.[/quote]
Yes, my error, which is why I attached the link above to clarify. It says -

"More than 20% of women admitted to intensive care for Covid-19 since May 2021 were pregnant or had recently given birth, a study has found."

Whatever the actual number, my question was more about how the outcome for pregnant women and babies is registered. Presumably being ill to the point of being on ECMO is not great for unborn babies and I imagine there would be some negative consequences for them.

Also, isn’t it 14% more children in the control group mentioned symptoms than in the placebo group, rather than 14% of all children who had COVID? 67% reported ongoing symptoms in the covid group and 53% in the non-covid group.

@OrganicMooMoo Not the case, judging by the very first paragraph of the article.

“Up to one in seven (14%) children and young people who caught SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) may have symptoms linked to the virus 15 weeks later, suggest preliminary findings from the world’s largest study on long COVID in children, led by clinicians and researchers at Great Ormond Street Hospital and UCL Institute of Child Health.”

And the fact that some teenagers who didn’t have covid reported feeling tired/fatigued/ill when going back to school is explained in the part you copy-pasted That doesn’t mean that long covid symptoms don’t exist.

Most of us were physically and mentally knackered after lockdowns, whether we’d worked through them or not.

Long covid symptoms can include fatigue. Fatigue can also have other causes. But long covid often isn’t just fatigue - there’s heart damage (like my son), asthma, loss of smell/taste, inflammatory system complications, stomach problems, neurological problems, and extreme fatigue that lasts longer than “going back to school” fatigue.

I honestly don’t see the point of minimising that, when the opposite of minimising isn’t “scaremongering”, it’s having a modicum of understanding and respect for what those children and their families are going through.

@JanglyBeads

So sorry to read , both here and on other threads, about your DC’s experiences *@BewareTheLibrarians*.

Thanks Jan I’m as sick of talking about it as people are of hearing it, but I can’t let the misinformation/ignorance go. Thanks for putting up with me!

"But long covid often isn’t just fatigue - there’s heart damage (like my son), asthma, loss of smell/taste, inflammatory system complications, stomach problems, neurological problems, and extreme fatigue that lasts longer than “going back to school” fatigue.

I honestly don’t see the point of minimising that, when the opposite of minimising isn’t “scaremongering”, it’s having a modicum of understanding and respect for what those children and their families are going through."

Well said.

That doesn’t mean that long covid symptoms don’t exist.

No one is saying they don’t exist. Just that some symptoms may not actually be linked to covid at all. This is one of the reasons why it’s so important to get a proper definition - how is it helpful to include people with mild symptoms that may have nothing to do with covid in with children, like your son, that have had severe, life changing symptoms that were definitely the result of covid.

No one is saying they don’t exist. Just that some symptoms may not actually be linked to covid at all.

Do you honestly think that the gps, consultants, specialists we (long covid kid parents) see don’t discuss what’s related/not related with us? Just in case of confusion - they very much do.

We know, they know, it’s kind of irrelevant that you don’t understand.

I agree with you that there needs to be a more consistent system than self reporting, but given that the predominant narrative is still “covid doesn’t affect children” it’s not going to happen soon.

If that bothers people, perhaps they shouldn’t contribute to that narrative by downplaying covid risks in children, (because again - the opposite of minimising isn’t “scaremongering”, it’s having a modicum of understanding and respect for what those children and their families are going through).

Because the more predominant that narrative is, the more covid/long covid is minimised and ignored on forums, social media, face to face, the harder it is for us to fight for any system that accurately collects data and offers joined up support.

So, help?

But why does that matter so much to you? Why do you argue so much? Some people have long lasting issues.
Does it really matter if it's linked or not linked to covid?
What really matter for the parents with children who has long lasting issue is to resolve that issue.
But people dismissing the effect of covid won't help. More people being aware the potential risk the virus can do to the children will help.
It doesn't need to be life changing result to affect children. It can be a months or two lasting effect, to still affect children. Why can't you see it?
I'm sure I've read somewhere that you have children. But I really don't think you have children, or maybe you don't have children in school. If you do, you would understand the worry of the parents, @bumbleymummy

@bumbleymummy You are one of the posters that I see recently continously posting that (IIRC) 75-80% of teenagers have already had covid. Thats not what the official numbers say from the number of positive tests.
But it's OK to not test, just to self report that you think you had it, yeah? It doesn't need to be diagnosed based on the official diagnostic process (I.e. testing)?

You argue that the vaccines cause lots of side effects, as many people have self-reported them.

Yet you continuously argue that hundreds of thousands of children are being left with longer term effects of covid, because you don't believe in a process by which the numbers are self reported?

Let's just say that bumbleymummy has one big bee in her bonnet and is not noted for her impartiality.

@winterisaroundthecorner

What really matter for the parents with children who has long lasting issue is to resolve that issue.

Well, yes. Which is why it is so important to not be bundling children with mild symptoms that may or may not be caused by covid with children with severe symptoms that have most definitely been caused by covid. It makes the data too noisy to extract any useful information and is not going to help anyone.

Yes, I have children of school age and yes, I can understand why parents are worried. Particularly when they can’t get answers. Not having a proper definition of long covid and accurate data is not going to improve that.

@OrganicMooMoo

Lelivre but numbers are higher now (according to PHE) in the double vaxxed population than in the unvaxxed population (proportionally, not just absolute numbers) meaning there is more spread, it seems, in the vaxxed than in the unvaxxed. I saw it at my daughter’s school. 8 cases in the entire school the week before the vax rollout and 14 cases in her class the week after, all of whom had the vax. They’re all back at school now.

This sounds as if the school was at the start of an outbreak already when the children had the vaccine and they were simultaneously incubating it whilst an immune response was still being stimulated.

As for the other point, I understand coronavirus AB’s do not stay high for long and for large numbers they are waning and we are in the middle of a wave and the numbers should not be any kind of a surprise, hopefully there will still be some protection from severe disease and death for many. Boosters bring those circulating ABs up which is need given the speed in which Delta infects cells.

Look at other countries with low vax uptake, Russia for example, it’s not the vaccine making people sick with covid.