Infecting children to protect adults - yay or nay?

[PrincessNutNuts]

"There is an argument for allowing the virus to circulate amongst children
which could provide broader immunity to the children and boost immunity in
adults.”

From the JCVI minutes.

What about you?

Are you in favour of a policy of infecting children to protect adults?

Ok with children suffering illness, going to hospital and dying to protect adults?

Yay or nay?

I am not convinced by the ‘concerns about myocarditis’ argument. For two reasons. Firstly, the UK was very much not concerned about the blood clotting issues with AZ and kept giving it to certain age groups despite the fact that people were dying from the jab. Most other countries were a lot more cautious, the UK stood out with its approach. So why would we suddenly be super cautious when it comes to this age group, when myocarditis actually seems to have better outcomes than the blood clotting?

Secondly, pretty much every other country has made the very clear decision that fully jabbing teenagers is safer than letting them have Covid. Why should that calculation be any different in the UK?

I suspect there are other reasons for the dilly dallying. Perhaps trying to save money?

@BewareTheLibrarians

Thanks *@mrsnoname* for your well wishes and sorry to hear about your situation. That must have been really tough.

I’m not entirely sure why your experience with a different vaccine needs to minimise my son’s experience with covid, but to be honest I’m quite used to it by now

This is a very unfair comment! You shared your son’s personal health experience, and the other poster shared hers. Why does sharing her different experience minimise yours?

I’m sorry to hear that your son had been so unwell and I hope that he makes a full recovery soon .

12-15 year olds will be offered a second vaccine just “later”. It will probably be in about 12 weeks. As vaccination teams are overwhelmed they have to prioritise boosters for the elderly.
Lots of kids have already had Covid anyway, they will likely be offered vaccines in due course. Granted we haven’t yet approved like the US but I think even Israel is just debating it now. Even in Israel up
take for vaccines 12-15 was I think only just over 55 per cent.

Yes, it seems very very clear that the risk of myocarditis from catching covid - which is a virtual certainty sooner or later if you're in a UK state school - is far higher from the vaccine.

It doesn't make sense.

@bumbleymummy

But they still don't have the choice, they can only have 1 shot if you are 12-15?

Because of concerns about the increased rate of myocarditis after the second vaccine, particularly in young males. If the only reason you want your child to have two vaccines is so they can travel/have access to places that have put restrictions on young people without two doses, then the issue is the restrictions, not the decision not to offer a second dose yet because of health concerns. It’s the restrictions that should be changed. The vaccine has done a great job of reducing the risk of serious illness/death but clearly isn’t as good at preventing infection/transmission so these restrictions make little sense anyway.

Omg, are you serious? Don't you think there are parents who want their children vaccinated fully, to protect them, nothing to do with restrictions? Chance of adverse reaction after the 2nd dose is way smaller than actual covid. Data is clear.

Just because you think not getting vaccinated is disadvantage for you and your children because of travel and other restrictions, we are never be on the same page. Some parents just want to protect their children from unknown illness.
I @ you the other day with latest research about 1/4 people, especially if you are elderly or asymptomatic didn't get any antibody from natural infection, and asked your opinion. You never replied.

The vaccine teams haven't offered vaccines to all schools yet; the take up depends a bit on whether children have had the opportunity to be vaccinated, doesn't it?

Let's see how the figures look once the access has been a bit wider.

Quoting statistics about take up when the roll out has been so poor and so many kids have had covid is a little misleading.

Children were advised they couldn't have the vaccine for 48 days after catching covid - so that rules out hundreds of thousands of kids - and many schools haven't even had the vaccinators in yet. It's only very recently you could book for a vaccine in children elsewhere.

@Schulte perhaps the mistakes that were made with AZ have made them more cautious? They probably want to tread even more carefully with children so as to not risk undermining trust in children’s vaccines in general. And we did have very high uptake in adults - particularly the most at risk groups - so our risk/benefit for vaccinating children would have been different to other countries with much lower uptake and those that didn’t prioritise the most at risk groups as we did.

My 16 yr old will be 12 weeks from his 1st vaccine this weekend. They need to get a move on and give them their 2nd jab

@theemperorhasnoclothes

Yes, it seems very very clear that the risk of myocarditis from catching covid - which is a virtual certainty sooner or later if you're in a UK state school - is far higher from the vaccine.

It doesn't make sense.

That is true over all 12-15 year olds on average, but the JCVI was apparently worried because one sub-group of 12-15s (over weight male 12-15s, after the second dose) might have had a slightly higher risk of myocarditis from the vaccine than from covid.

The real issue in England today as regards the COVID situation is whether all the baby boomers are going to have their boosters. The very elderly generation seems happy to oblige. What the 12-15 year olds end up doing is besides the point as they do not overwhelm the NHS. It is not urgent and they will be offered their second doses, although take up will probably only be about 50 per max.

@winterisaroundthecorner

Omg, are you serious? Don't you think there are parents who want their children vaccinated fully, to protect them, nothing to do with restrictions?

No, I didn’t say that. I said if the only reason… because for some people that is the reason they want two doses, not because they are worried about the virus. As others have said, most children have had the virus at this point with no ill effects.

And yes, I read the paper the other day. I’ll reply to you on the other thread when I get a chance.

@bumbleymummy
No please, do reply on this thread if you ever do, since the other thread is dead, and this is more current.

‘If you ever do’? Can you stop being rude please? I’m not at your beck and call. I didn’t reply the other day because I was enjoying the last day of half term with my children. I did read the paper you linked to but I would like to look at a few points again before I reply to it and I’m not really in the mood to do that right now.

The decision not to vaccinate children against chicken pox (unless they are immunosuppressed or living with someone CEV) in the UK is purely a financial one. I discussed the chicken pox vaccination with my GP who told me this openly. ditto the decision not to retrospectively call children up for the Men B vaccine which was introduced in Sept 2015. I would much rather money be spent on delivering these two vaccines (especially the Men B one) that the Covid one for under 12s

You don't need to, really. You said you read the article, but not reply to my question, that's your choice.
But I am totally allowed to assume you didn't or couldn't reply because you couldn't find anything to say, in line of what you preach, for last 4 days. I don't think I am rude, I presented to you something against what you keep saying, that natural immunity is almighty, and asked what you think, and you never replied for 4 days, until I asked you again today.

@BewareTheLibrarians - the dire consequences for me and my children personally:

• not being able to see my parents/grandparents for over two yrs as I cannot afford to self-isolate for another 10 days when coming back to the UK + my parents took the "wrong" vaccine for the UK, so also not able to visit at the moment.
• not being able to afford the hefty fees for the extra tests for myself and rest of family when travelling (not for holiday purposes though, I just simply want to hug my mum and dad before it's too late, spend a few more birthdays and Chirstmases with them like everyone else is able to do so so easily now).
• the uncertainty of not knowing if I'll even be able to keep my job in the future.
• being labelled with derogatory names by complete strangers or alienate friends due to my choice (which btw I've leant to keep extremely private now).
• subjecting my children to the bullying of their peers for their mum's choice of not vaccinating them.

These are just a few but undoubtedly life defining consequences. So "whinging on about your kid" as you've put it, is not at all an issue. On the contrary, having lived through a very similar extremely scary experience to your son as a 14 yr old, I just wish that he fully recovers and never has to face the kind of burdens like myself in years to come.

I @ you the other day with latest research about 1/4 people, especially if you are elderly or asymptomatic didn't get any antibody from natural infection, and asked your opinion. You never replied.

Surely most people who were asymptomatic didn't produce antibodies because they didn't need a full-on immune response to defeat the infection - they didn't even have the mildest of symptoms that the common cold can bring!.

Their innate defences, such as t-cells, were sufficient, not because they are somehow immuno-compromised.

It's a bit like implying: "In x% of minor car accidents, airbags weren't activated" means there's a problem with car airbags in x% of minor accidents!!

Warhertisuff, I totally see your point, but what I was asking her was she keeps on claiming majority of UK population has had covid, and natural immunity lasts longer and healthy young people don't need to be vaccinated. Yes, maybe the majority have had covid, and had it really mild, but if they don't gain any immunity, they will keep getting it again and again, and maybe it could be bad some day if the virus keep mutating? Then her claim of natural immunity is better won't work, and the person who gets it can get seriously ill? Problem is we really don't know much about this virus. Protection is better than assuming it will be ok, imo.

I’ve replied to you on the other thread. There are many many studies that show that the majority of people do develop immunity after infection and that it lasts 9+ months. Antibodies aren’t the only factor to be considered. Just because someone’s antibodies drop below a certain level doesn’t mean that they are not immune. Data from ons shows that reinfection is rare and serious reinfection is even more rare so I’m not sure what you are assuming that people will get it again and again and that it will get worse.

And I think it should be personal choice about whether or not anyone gets vaccinated btw, including children. I also think it should be an informed decision based on the latest data and information that we have from reliable sources.

Why? I specifically asked you to reply on this thread because other thread is old and no one is reading? Now I need to look for it and dig it up since it's not even on my " the thread I'm on"?
Why do you need to go back to old thread and answer my question when I asked you to answer on this one? Weird.

I actually think it would be weird for me to reply to it here, out of context. My reply will bump it back up so it’s active again and I @ you so I’m sure you’ll have no problem finding it.

Why? I asked the question here again today because you never answered me before, that 1/4 of people who are elderly or asymptomatic don't get antibody from natural infection, and asked what do you think about it. The link to the nature article is on the other thread, but you said you have read it.

Yes, we have known that about older/immunocompromised people for some time. It’s why they are being offered boosters. The majority of people do develop antibodies that so far have been shown to last for 9+ months (as shown by multiple studies.) I replied to you on the other thread and @ you so you should be able to find it.