Infecting children to protect adults - yay or nay?

[PrincessNutNuts]

"There is an argument for allowing the virus to circulate amongst children
which could provide broader immunity to the children and boost immunity in
adults.”

From the JCVI minutes.

What about you?

Are you in favour of a policy of infecting children to protect adults?

Ok with children suffering illness, going to hospital and dying to protect adults?

Yay or nay?

@beentoldcomputersaysno

It's weird for a country that professes to value education and educators...almost as if it was just words and not action

The government certainly values neither.

Certainly looks that way. Other countries certainly valued education, put teachers on the boosters list, gave more for catch up funding, put in measures to keep education going, without infecting everyone. It's all a bit hollow - just like when 'freedom' is touted over covid, whilst freedom is being trodden over in so many other ways.

@rrhuth

Young people who were initially symptomless can get serious post-viral complications and organ impacts. COVID is complicated and we understand it very little.

This. Even if the JCVI’s argument was “it will protect children when they become adults” how does that work for children with long covid and organ damage? Ds is on month 20 and no one has any idea if it will resolve or if this is it for the rest of his life. Is that protection?

(Very rare) side effects from the vaccine in teens show up in the days or couple of weeks after the vaccine, are very mild for the vast majority and resolve within days or weeks, often with no medical intervention.

Really happy for the people who know loads of teenagers that barely even noticed having covid. Would be lovely if they could still understand that it does affect some children, and those children don’t deserve to have their health or experiences ignored or minimised.

[quote Incognito22333]@Walkaround - “ I don’t believe for a second that the long term side effects of the vaccine will ever be greater than the long term side effects of covid itself.” Great that that is your belief, but you cannot force it on anyone else.
Of course this is anecdote but 27 of my DD’s friends recently tested positive for Covid. Not one even had a temperature or felt unwell. Of the 27 2 had a runny nose as the only symptom. Most of them very frustrated having to spend 10 days in their rooms away from their friends and not allowed in school. It is most likely that will have had a more significant impact on them personally than the virus itself. They all say that. Perhaps we should start a website of all teenagers who have tested positive for Covid and what their experiences were. Despite sitting with a lot of these friends my DD did not get Covid, she had it last year. She is now reluctant to have the vaccine despite me “working on her”. In her own opinion it is pointless because none of her friends had any actual illness from the virus and her friends who have had the vaccine had a sore arm, a few a temperature, felt worse after that.[/quote]
Your daughter is very wise.

[quote Incognito22333]@Walkaround - “ I don’t believe for a second that the long term side effects of the vaccine will ever be greater than the long term side effects of covid itself.” Great that that is your belief, but you cannot force it on anyone else.
Of course this is anecdote but 27 of my DD’s friends recently tested positive for Covid. Not one even had a temperature or felt unwell. Of the 27 2 had a runny nose as the only symptom. Most of them very frustrated having to spend 10 days in their rooms away from their friends and not allowed in school. It is most likely that will have had a more significant impact on them personally than the virus itself. They all say that. Perhaps we should start a website of all teenagers who have tested positive for Covid and what their experiences were. Despite sitting with a lot of these friends my DD did not get Covid, she had it last year. She is now reluctant to have the vaccine despite me “working on her”. In her own opinion it is pointless because none of her friends had any actual illness from the virus and her friends who have had the vaccine had a sore arm, a few a temperature, felt worse after that.[/quote]
Ha, ha. Forcing a belief onto teenagers is refusing to allow them to choose to be fully vaccinated. No beliefs are forced onto people when they are actually given a choice.

Ha, ha. Forcing a belief onto teenagers is refusing to allow them to choose to be fully vaccinated. No beliefs are forced onto people when they are actually given a choice.

This doesn’t make sense.

@Sean2001

My son is 12 and chose to have the vaccine as covid left him with heart damage. A pretty wise kid! His side effects from the vaccine were a sore arm for a day. That’s it.

You mentioned upthread that no one knows the long term effects of the vaccine. Vaccines don’t tend to have long term effects. They don’t “lie dormant” then spring up and attack you later. The side effects come in the days/couple of weeks following vaccination.

Do you know the long term effects of covid? I have personal experience via ds and it’s not great. 20 months of heart damage. His inflammatory system keeps reacting to something (doctors don’t know what) and he keeps having painful relapses. It’s not a huge amount of fun.

We don’t know long term effects of either.

Vaccines don’t tend ...this a new technology never been used before.

@Sean2001

Ha, ha. Forcing a belief onto teenagers is refusing to allow them to choose to be fully vaccinated. No beliefs are forced onto people when they are actually given a choice.

This doesn’t make sense.

In what way does it not make sense? Seems to me the belief children should not be allowed the vaccine is very much forced on them if they are not allowed the vaccine and the belief they should have the vaccine very much not forced on them if they are given the choice whether or not to have it. What are you therefore failing to understand, here?

It’s not a new technology and it has been used before.

But let’s say you ignore that - can you explain why the “very small risk” from the vaccine is a terrible thing that we shouldn’t inflict on children, but the “very small risk” from a novel virus is entirely fine to inflict on them?

The biggest risk from the vaccine is mild myocarditis that resolves without hospital treatment in the vast majority of cases.

The risks from covid include:
Long covid
PIMS/MIS-C
Organ damage including myocarditis
Neurological damage
Asthma
all of which can occur in healthy children with no underlying conditions.

@BewareTheLibrarians, I hope your boy makes a full recovery!!

I remember being that child only too well as, unfortunately, I am the contra example having ended up with a lifelong heart condition due to myocarditis caused by a vaccine 30 yrs ago. For this reason, I've opted out of taking this particular jab and will most certainly not be encouraging my children to take it either as the susceptibility is clearly there. So far, it seems that I've made the right decision as our latest encounter with the virus was fairly mild for all of us. We did, however, work very hard on our general health and wellbeing in the last two yrs leading up to all of us coming down with covid. The sad reality is that I now have to bear being labelled an antivaxxer and conspiracy theorist because I made the right decision for myself and my own children.

Thanks @mrsnoname for your well wishes and sorry to hear about your situation. That must have been really tough.

I’m not entirely sure why your experience with a different vaccine needs to minimise my son’s experience with covid, but to be honest I’m quite used to it by now

As far as I know research has not confirmed a reduction in shingles in adults if children are not vaccinated against chicken pox.

And once a child has had chicken pox, the virus is in their body forever ready to come out as shingles.

So much for reducing shingles by letting children get chickenpox.

@BewareTheLibrarians I didn't at all imply that my experience overrides your son's, however, I did imply that we all act based on our own health status and according to our own personal life experiences... or so we should, but in this pandemic it definitely doesn't feel like we're truly free to exercise freedom of choice without dire consequences.

@mrsnoname As much as I have a different perspective, I do understand why you made that decision. What are the dire consequences that you believe you’ll face if you/your kids don’t have the vaccine? (Apart from me whinging on about my kid ) And I ask that gently, I’m not having a dig.

Not being able to travel, not being able to keep your job in some countries. If domestic passports are introduced (as they have been in some places) not being able to enter certain venues etc. Some countries that have vaccinated children won’t allow unvaccinated children to play sports etc.

@bumbleymummy - and not letting my children choose to have the vaccine is doubly disadvantaging them, as they neither get the vaccination they want nor do they have the ability to travel to those countries, so vaccine refusers still have more choice than my children. I therefore don’t have any sympathy for the argument that other countries are doing something that you do not like. You can choose to stay in the UK, unvaccinated, if you want. I do not want to be forced to stay in the UK.

The vaccine is available for children now so they can choose to have it if they want. The point is though, if these restrictions weren’t in place then your children wouldn’t need the vaccine to do any of those things. People could choose to have the vaccine if they want but it wouldn’t be tied into penalties if they did not - just like every routine vaccine that we’re offered.

How do you get to that conclusion, @Walkaround (that "vaccine refusers still have more choice than [...] children"?)

Travel and even daily life is largely on the basis of it being vaccinated for many parts of the world, although for most places, children do get a free pass because most places have not extended the mandate to the very youngest.

But I don't get the point. Kids are not doubly disadvantaged. It's just that they can't currently get the vaccine.

They are not forced to remain in the UK — they could travel to most places, no?

I imagine they'd be able ot get the vaccine in many other countries, and you might even be able to arrange for them to be vaccinated whilst away.

If you get a GP's letter on the basis of a presumed clinical need, I'd be surprised if you can't get them vaccinated in the UK. Just may need a bit of manipulation of the system on your part. (You'll need to cite something like travel to somewhere a bit Covid-sketchy — Africa, or perhaps Russia? Rocking up and asking for a letter for the sake of it won't work.)

Mine had it only picked up on LFT when we came back from home , only sign was she had a runny nose no other symptoms!!

@LoveFall

As far as I know research has not confirmed a reduction in shingles in adults if children are not vaccinated against chicken pox.

And once a child has had chicken pox, the virus is in their body forever ready to come out as shingles.

So much for reducing shingles by letting children get chickenpox.

Yes I think it is bizarre, and in 10 or 20 years time, we may well look back and marvel that, in the UK, we weren't using the vaccine that's available.

@bumbleymummy

The vaccine is available for children now so they can choose to have it if they want. The point is though, if these restrictions weren’t in place then your children wouldn’t need the vaccine to do any of those things. People could choose to have the vaccine if they want but it wouldn’t be tied into penalties if they did not - just like every routine vaccine that we’re offered.

But they still don't have the choice, they can only have 1 shot if you are 12-15?

In my ideal world, anyone who want to can get fully vaccinated. But it's still not the case in UK. And people who are eligible can choose not to get vaccinated so it's hugely in favour of people who doesn't want to get vaccinated. I couldn't care less about where you can't go or what you can't do because you chose not to get vaccinated, you made a choice. But those who wants to get vaccinated. they still don't have full choice.

@Mosky

It's not chicken pox which as far as I know has no lasting effects on anyone who gets it as a child. Covid can cause serious complications in a minority of children.

Chicken pox can cause fatalities in a minority of children too

But they still don't have the choice, they can only have 1 shot if you are 12-15?

Because of concerns about the increased rate of myocarditis after the second vaccine, particularly in young males. If the only reason you want your child to have two vaccines is so they can travel/have access to places that have put restrictions on young people without two doses, then the issue is the restrictions, not the decision not to offer a second dose yet because of health concerns. It’s the restrictions that should be changed. The vaccine has done a great job of reducing the risk of serious illness/death but clearly isn’t as good at preventing infection/transmission so these restrictions make little sense anyway.

But those who want to get vaccinated. they still don't have full choice

This is so true.

Discrimination against those who want vaccines! I'd like my female child to have two doses (i would understand why some might choose not to double vaccinate a male because there is a tiny risk for boys but NOT for girls).

I'd also like a booster because the number of double vaxxed parents in their 40s I know currently very, very ill with covid (caught from their kids who caught it from school) is now extremely high .