BBC article on misinformation groups

[beentoldcomputersaysno]

The BBC has actually published an article on disinformation groups HART, UsforThem (obviously not named Government's links with them as it is the BBC). Wonder why they've timed this now?

www.bbc.com/news/health-58783711

And it's precisely because you can't evaluate raw data that I haven't. I gave you % of positivity. Raw data would be total number of cases etc.
Have you read the Data thread? No room there for pro or anti anything. Just the numbers and analysis thereof.
It's strangely comforting if you tend towards paranoia.

The mainstream viewpoint. A fucking crocodile clip should have been able to work out that answer

The "mainstream viewpoint" tells me what to say?
Is that a person then?
Ok.
As I said, you might find the data threads comforting.

How do you know I don’t have a degree in statistics? In fact how do you know anything about my qualifications or abilities? You don’t, you just pin me as a stupid conspiracy theorist because I have questions about the reaction so far and the future plans already all but implemented.

The idea that anyone who has been keeping an eye on the dubious activities of Hart and their fake grassroots campaign offshoots like Us4Them and thinks them despicable in their actions must automatically think that that the government is doing a commendable job is pretty deluded.

Talking about behaviour and attitude, Us4Them in particular behaved atrociously on MN with lies, fake accounts, troll threads, attacks, abuse on anyone who thought that mitigation measures in schools might be a sensible idea.

Because of the lack of mitigation measures in schools and rising infection rates in school children, schools had to close from Jan to March. So in campaigning for no mitigation measures, they actually encouraged the conditions that led to closed schools. Absolute idiocy of it all.

@Lostinacloud

How do you know I don’t have a degree in statistics? In fact how do you know anything about my qualifications or abilities? You don’t, you just pin me as a stupid conspiracy theorist because I have questions about the reaction so far and the future plans already all but implemented.

I don't know you don't have a degree in statistics. Obviously. I haven't said you don't. That would be silly of me. Do you? Have I said that you, lostinacloud are a stupid conspiracy theorist? That would be a PA and I'd report me for saying that. I often talk about stupid conspiracy theorists mind. If you've read my posts mentioning them and recognised yourself, well, what can I say.

Oh dear, @Geamhradh, you've been rumbled! @Lostinacloud, What a bizarre thing to say.

Thank you for remaining civil in the debate. I don’t blame you for your style of replies to me, it’s what you’ve been asked to say to anyone like me so it goes over my head.

Definitely don’t say much more because you are not making much sense and it’s boring arguing with you on every thread you find me on.

@Lostinacloud

Definitely don’t say much more because you are not making much sense and it’s boring arguing with you on every thread you find me on.

Is that at me? I'd have a quick look at who posted first on this thread before accusing me of "finding you".

@Lostinacloud

Thank you for remaining civil in the debate. I don’t blame you for your style of replies to me, it’s what you’ve been asked to say to anyone like me so it goes over my head. However, I have particular knowledge about france and can tell you that the difference in case rate is not because of vaccinating teens and additional restrictions (although there are very few really, just the masks on transport and in shops for show-nobody wears them in houses, at parties, in offices etc - there’s even leaked footage of Macron dancing in a huge room of ministers the other night with not a single one in a mask). The difference is down to attitude since the start and the fact that there is much less testing. Since the start the french government never went as far as banning people from seeing their own family and a lot of the strict looking restrictions are actually very loose in practice. For this reason covid spread rapidly last year and during the earlier part of this year and herd immunity levels from natural infection have been achieved faster. Just like in the uk right now, last October in France you couldn’t move for bumping into someone who’d just had covid. School children have never tested twice a week and home tests aren’t actually really even a thing. You don’t get them free and they aren’t considered satisfactory proof for anything so hardly anyone uses them and definitely doesn’t pay money for them. Additionally, I see plenty of chat at ground level about parents sending their kids into school knowing that they have or probably have covid because they can’t afford the time off for isolating. Schools have also not been closed since last May and so it’s been able to spread round schools already.

It’s impossible to look at the raw data as you have and make comparisons because there is a whole other level of behaviour and attitude to consider.

I'm sorry but this picture you are describing in France is really not the reality. Firstly, France may not have had restrictions on entering other people's homes but they did have strict laws on being able to leave your own homecand how far you could travel from home. You had to carry a signed piece of paper declaring your reason for being outside. They had very strict lockdowns at various times. They now have the covid pass. All children wear masks in schools. How can you say they have done less than the UK?

I didn’t say anywhere france has done less but I did raise the point that it has been more freely able to spread there. Schools were not closed again after the first lockdown in March 2020 and pupils were not tested regularly causing whole classes to be continually closed down and thereby preventing spread once again. In fact for a large part of last year, it was only if more than 3 kids per class had tested positive that a class was closed so nothing like the U.K. where kids tested themselves twice per week and whole classes or year groups were closed due to one positive test. It’s makes a big difference to overall case numbers comparisons amongst school age kids over the course of a year when many french children were exposed to it months ago.

And the covid pass is pointless. Yes it was nicely times to coincide with a past the peak curve but as we all know, the vaccinated restaurant customer next to you, allowed in because he has his pass, could still spread covid to other patrons but hey, at least the unvaccinated guy walking past outside can’t

Overall case numbers are irrelevant.

Do you have a link supporting this statement:

"and herd immunity levels from natural infection have been achieved faster"

I was unaware that herd immunity had been reached anywhere, but am happy to be corrected.

@Lostinacloud

This seems to be going round in circles.

HART et al (the groups this thread is about) are psuedoscience charlatans who continue to lie and spread misinformation about coronavirus, vaccines and things like masks. They continually downplay the harms of CV, whilst exaggerating (and outright lie about) the harms of vaccines and NPIs.

I'm not saying this because some of the things they say are against government guidance, or because the BBC have reported it, or because "this is what they told me to say".

I'm saying it because everytime I read one of their updates/blog posts it's filled with inaccurate statements, inadequate referecing, pseudoscience and lies, and their group is full of questionable people, many who have been anti-vaxxers long before coronavirus was an issue. There's a reason these articles aren't published.

@Lostinacloud

And the covid pass is pointless. Yes it was nicely times to coincide with a past the peak curve but as we all know, the vaccinated restaurant customer next to you, allowed in because he has his pass, could still spread covid to other patrons but hey, at least the unvaccinated guy walking past outside can’t

The vaccinated one is 65-80% less likely to pass it on. Presuming he has it. Which, what with him being vaccinated and all is even less likely still. As you (should) know. The Covid pass seems to be working in the countries where it's used. Looking at their % positivity cf England in the last few days. (again, try the Data thread)

The covid pass is nothing but a discrimination tool. Fine, if you want your child’s future ability to participate in everyday life and continue going to his sports clubs to be based on he or she having a medical procedure that may or may not cause them harm (you don’t know) then you go ahead and keep waving that flag for plan B.
It is an absolutely abhorrent piece of covid legislation and all but forces people to be vaccinated no matter what their personal risk which goes against so many human rights laws it’s unreal. Somehow it is being gotten away with (thankfully not in Spain who rightly judged it unconstitutional) and it should NOT be welcomed into Britain - one of the leading countries fighting all other types of discrimination.

@Lostinacloud

The covid pass is nothing but a discrimination tool. Fine, if you want your child’s future ability to participate in everyday life and continue going to his sports clubs to be based on he or she having a medical procedure that may or may not cause them harm (you don’t know) then you go ahead and keep waving that flag for plan B. It is an absolutely abhorrent piece of covid legislation and all but forces people to be vaccinated no matter what their personal risk which goes against so many human rights laws it’s unreal. Somehow it is being gotten away with (thankfully not in Spain who rightly judged it unconstitutional) and it should NOT be welcomed into Britain - one of the leading countries fighting all other types of discrimination.

You've already said in one of you posts that children can choose to be tested instead of being vaccinated?

Just how anyone can support a policy which renders the situation where a parent choosing not to vaccinate their 12 year old due to genuine concerns means that their child can no longer eat in a restaurant with them or go to his local football club is beyond me. Yes they can get tested every 3 days at 25 euros a time in a pharmacy (no self tests work for the passport) but that’s asking a lot of all parties concerned just because they are trying to retain their “choice”. Be bloody careful what you wish for. Countries like Italy, france and Germany will be touted out as reasons why the covid passport apparently works but the current case numbers have little to nothing to do with the covid passports.

@Lostinacloud

Just how anyone can support a policy which renders the situation where a parent choosing not to vaccinate their 12 year old due to genuine concerns means that their child can no longer eat in a restaurant with them or go to his local football club is beyond me. Yes they can get tested every 3 days at 25 euros a time in a pharmacy (no self tests work for the passport) but that’s asking a lot of all parties concerned just because they are trying to retain their “choice”. Be bloody careful what you wish for. Countries like Italy, france and Germany will be touted out as reasons why the covid passport apparently works but the current case numbers have little to nothing to do with the covid passports.

They can eat with them.

You will already find that your 12-18 year old child cannot enter some countries without quarantine because of their vaccination status. Imagine when that is applied domestically to taking them to football practice or out for pizza on a Friday night!

@Lostinacloud

You will already find that your 12-18 year old child cannot enter some countries without quarantine because of their vaccination status. Imagine when that is applied domestically to taking them to football practice or out for pizza on a Friday night!

Ok so more speculation then.

[quote ollyollyoxenfree]**@Lostinacloud

This seems to be going round in circles.

HART et al (the groups this thread is about) are psuedoscience charlatans who continue to lie and spread misinformation about coronavirus, vaccines and things like masks. They continually downplay the harms of CV, whilst exaggerating (and outright lie about) the harms of vaccines and NPIs.

I'm not saying this because some of the things they say are against government guidance, or because the BBC have reported it, or because "this is what they told me to say".

I'm saying it because everytime I read one of their updates/blog posts it's filled with inaccurate statements, inadequate referecing, pseudoscience and lies, and their group is full of questionable people, many who have been anti-vaxxers long before coronavirus was an issue. There's a reason these articles aren't published.[/quote]
to bring it back to the actual thread (maybe you need to start a new one on COVID status passes)

any comment on this @Lostinacloud?

Maybe you think it’s all fine for a week’s half term
Holiday to just get your teen tested a couple of times so they can join you in a restaurant or museum and are not treated as a social pariah but just stop and think about that lasting for months and months or even years, who knows? I not none of us have been given an end date for this. France made a law theirs would end on Nov 15th and yet next week they vote on extending it until at least the end of July 2022.

My comment is that the thread argument has evolved so I’ll put my comments wherever is appropriate olly.

I'm noticing the attempts to divert attention away from HART and their dubious offspring here.