Does having had Covid count as being vaccinated?

[Falcor]

Just that really. For non uk travellers coming over for a short trip?

Thank you beforehand

@ppeatfruit

Thanks Scottish It leaves me in a quandary. I wonder if it's worth waiting until the booster includes an ingredient against the new strain?

It's likely to be about 6 months minimum as the trial only started in September and the current trial is based on receiving the AZ jab initially.

The results from the booster trial based on same vaccine conducted in May were good though at showing strong immune response.

Here's a summary of it if you want to do more reading www.nihr.ac.uk/news/data-from-nihr-supported-studies-inform-uk-covid-19-booster-programme/28663

Natural infection offers much better and long lasting immunity than the vaccines, which seem to wane after a few months.

www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2101/rr-0

It's so, so strange that governments are ignoring this. I wonder why this could be ?

@Scottishskifun studies have shown durable, broad immunity in the majority after natural infection.

Yes, as time goes on and more data emerges, countries have increased the length of time after recovery as proof of immunity. Most studies show 9-12 months so far which is longer than immunity against infection from the vaccine.

You keep skipping over my point - where is the justification for accepting someone with proof of a vaccine that only provides low protection against infection and not accepting someone with proof of previous infection that provides longer term, durable protection against reinfection? These rules don’t change when people without critical thought. Are you against someone having access if they have proof of previous infection but are not vaccinated? If so, why?

when people just accept them without critical thought.

@bumbleymummy please provide links to these peer reviewed studies with proper publications which show this......

As a study I referenced demonstrated its not its lower than vaccination 🙄
Some countries do accept them but its time limited as I stated many many times.

Natural immunity of course helps and plays a good role in protection but given I personally know 5 people who have had covid more than once prior to vaccination it's not the amazing wand you seem to portray.

I'm content with the rules it means we can holiday abroad again without quarantine to many places and don't have to on return. Not my problem if it doesn't suit your narrative!

If natural immunity is so superior and long lasting, why does things like this happen?

www.reviewjournal.com/news/politics-and-government/nevada/mutant-of-delta-variant-blamed-for-nevada-mans-rapid-reinfection-2455634/

Our dd arrived in the UK on Wednesday from Spain where she is a resident.
She had COVID in June and 1 shot of Pfizer in September.
She passed the airport controls no problem but said they didn't look very closely at her vaccination certificate.

@Scottishskifun. I thought I’d already linked to them upthread but perhaps it was on another thread.

Durable immunity after infection:

www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2021-06/Duration-of%20protective-immunity-evidence-summary.pdf

www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666379121002032

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.27.21264013v1

Waning immunity to infection after vaccination:

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114114

[quote bumbleymummy]@Scottishskifun. I thought I’d already linked to them upthread but perhaps it was on another thread.

Durable immunity after infection:

www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2021-06/Duration-of%20protective-immunity-evidence-summary.pdf

www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666379121002032

www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.27.21264013v1

Waning immunity to infection after vaccination:

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2114114[/quote]
😂 I suggest that you read your studies more carefully!!!!
In fact the first link even states out of 19 studies examined of natural immunity preventing re-infection only 4 had robust methodologies.
On the next section it states that cohorts are small on many of the studies they examined and they all reported declining levels of immunity 6-9 months post infection.......

It doesn't really fit with what your posts try to indicate in terms of natural immunity being better and longer term in fact it states pretty much the opposite 😂

The studies in nature etc also show reduction and half life of immunity from natural infection!

Obviously it never can.

I’ve read them fine thanks. They’ve supported what I’ve said. The first link resulted in a recommendation to increase presumptive immunity from 6 to 9 months in Ireland. Do you think they were wrong? :)

@Umbro02

It should do. You’re better protected if you’ve had Covid than if you’ve only been vaccinated.

Not true.

You’re better protected if you’ve had Covid and subsequently been vaccinated than if you’ve only been vaccinated. But you’re better protected if you’ve only been vaccinated than if you’ve only had Covid. Info from the Zoe Covid symptom study app:

We found that two doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine gave 71% protection against infection, increasing to 90% for people who had previously tested positive for COVID-19.

Two doses of the Pfizer vaccine provided 87% protection, which went up to 95% for people who had already been infected with the virus.

By contrast, having had COVID-19 without being vaccinated only gave 65% protection against catching it again.

covid.joinzoe.com/post/do-i-need-a-covid-vaccine-if-ive-had-covid

@bumbleymummy

I’ve read them fine thanks. They’ve supported what I’ve said. The first link resulted in a recommendation to increase presumptive immunity from 6 to 9 months in Ireland. Do you think they were wrong? :)

😂 So studies showing decreasing natural immunity over time without vaccination supports your statements that natural immunity lasts longer and that the majority had non robust justifications...... Wow 😂

No I don't think around 9 months is wrong for Ireland it's in line with a lot of the EU.
I think what you have stated through this thread and implying natural immunity alone is better and longer lasting is incorrect and wrong 😉

And @ScottishskifunI’m still waiting to hear if you object to people with natural immunity but no proof of vaccination being allowed entry to certain places. If so, why?

@bumbleymummy

And *@ScottishskifunI*’m still waiting to hear if you object to people with natural immunity but no proof of vaccination being allowed entry to certain places. If so, why?

😂 You referenced the studies yourself which show decreasing immunity from natural infection.

In some countries its perfectly acceptable for proof of recovery but it does have a time limit which I agree with.
In the UK well given the Scottish covid passport still has issues with medically exempt people it would be pretty difficult from a practical point of view to do that.

I'm still in natural antibody stage from covid, doesn't mean that I rely on it to prevent me being as seriously unwell that I was so I'm vaccinated for additional protection! As said I've also friends who have had covid more than once of different variants before vaccination!

“ So studies showing decreasing natural immunity over time without vaccination supports your statements that natural immunity lasts longer…”

Well, yes, when other studies show immunity after the vaccine waning after 4 months.

“ Effectiveness declined gradually thereafter, with the decline accelerating after the fourth month to reach approximately 20% in months 5 through 7 after the second dose.” (NEJM paper above)

And those studies do show that immunity after infection is durable for 9-12 months in the majority which is what I have stated on this thread. :)

“ The updated evidence summary identified 19 large cohort studies involving over 640,000 previously infected individuals, including six studies with over ten months’ follow-up. Across studies, the risk of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection was consistently found to be low. No study reported an increase in reinfection risk over time. More limited data were identified in relation to the immune response to SARS-CoV-2 infection. The identified studies suggest that immune memory develops in most or all people that have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and lasts for at least nine months”

“ Here we show that in convalescent individuals who had experienced mild SARS-CoV-2 infections (n = 77), levels of serum anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike protein (S) antibodies declined rapidly in the first 4 months after infection and then more gradually over the following 7 months, remaining detectable at least 11 months after infection.”

“ This in-depth longitudinal study demonstrates that durable immune memory persists in most COVID-19 patients, including those with mild disease, and serves as a framework to define and predict long-lived immunity to SARS-CoV-2 after natural infection.”

In the UK well given the Scottish covid passport still has issues with medically exempt people it would be pretty difficult from a practical point of view to do that.

But we do allow people who've previously had a positive pcr to get an NHS covid pass for 180 days.

No it doesn't OP. You need to provide your covid vaccine status on paper or the app.

Bottom line is, bumbleymummy, with vaccination, people can do something about waning immunity. They may get covid and may results in stronger immunity, or get a booster.
With only natural infection, if it wanes, only way to get it back is to get reinfected, which in case, some people may die, or have serious consequences in higher% than that of getting vaccinated.

@Megistotherium

Bottom line is, bumbleymummy, with vaccination, people can do something about waning immunity. They may get covid and may results in stronger immunity, or get a booster. With only natural infection, if it wanes, only way to get it back is to get reinfected, which in case, some people may die, or have serious consequences in higher% than that of getting vaccinated.

yup

this isn't evidence that demonstrates people with a previous infection shouldn't be vaccinated, hence why no public health bodies recommend it.

Plenty of evidence now to demonstrate in cohorts people with a previous infection, those who are vaccinated are less likely to be reinfected.

@Reallybadidea

In the UK well given the Scottish covid passport still has issues with medically exempt people it would be pretty difficult from a practical point of view to do that.

But we do allow people who've previously had a positive pcr to get an NHS covid pass for 180 days.

Scottish system run by Scottish govt and English system run by UK govt is very different we don't have that in our system! Only proof that we have for that is showing a dated PCR result text!

@Megistotherium

Bottom line is, bumbleymummy, with vaccination, people can do something about waning immunity. They may get covid and may results in stronger immunity, or get a booster. With only natural infection, if it wanes, only way to get it back is to get reinfected, which in case, some people may die, or have serious consequences in higher% than that of getting vaccinated.

“ The estimated number of reinfections in the UK between July 2020 and September 2021, is low overall (11.8 per 100,000 participant days at risk), and reinfections more likely to cause serious illness are even lower (5.5 per 100,000 participant days at risk).”

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveycharacteristicsofpeopletestingpositiveforcovid19uk/latest

I don’t really understand why you are so against the idea of natural immunity. It’s a great thing that immunity after infection is durable. It’s also a great thing that we have vaccines that can reduce the risk of serious illness for those most at risk/those who are worried about contracting covid.

What isn’t great is discriminating against people because they haven’t had a vaccine. Particularly when many of them are immune and are therefore less likely to be a risk than a vaccinated person.

Well, if you look at the country like Denmark, having a vaccine passport for certain period of time do help. Once the transmission rate is low, they can always scrap it.
Another example is Japan, vaccination rate is similar to UK now due to slow start. But the explanation they come up for sudden drop in cases is the fact unvaccinated people self restraining and being careful in general while vaccination was going forward.

You have a choice not to get vaccinated. But maybe instead of shouting "discrimination", you should work on gov to recognize natural immunity and way to prove it yourselves you are immune?
How do we know someone have natural immunity? Do you have natural immunity? You can't even confirm you had covid or not yourself, I should mmob, right?

They can prove they have been vaccinated for a start.
Just look at the countries doing good, their vaccination rate is good too.
There's no denying vaccination help the country to get out of this mess.

People like you, are the problem. People like you are killing many. Maybe not in England, but definitely in US. "Trust your immunity", and how many people need to die unnecessarily? You maybe fit an healthy. But not everyone is. Spreading misinformation should be treated as manslaughter in my opinion.
Don't get vaccinated if you don't want to. But please stop trying to influence others.

The data is very clear, vaccine is safer, way safer than natural infection.