Why is one jab good enough for kids but not adults?

[Whatdoyawannado]

If one jab is adequate for under 18s how is it not enough for over 18s?

[quote Peteycat]@Thewiseoneincognito

"Children are Covid vectors, vaccination is our only tool to try to limit that, whether it works or not remains to be seen but if the government is to steadfastly stand by their belief that vaccination reduces transmission then it’s only logical they would use it with the biggest group of transmission vectors."

Demonising and weaponising children to suit your own agenda because you are frightened of a virus is despicable. They are not covid vectors, how dare you constantly drone on and on about children. Leave them alone.[/quote]
Did Boris Johnson not say the very same thing? They are vectors of transmission along with schools. It’s not my opinion, it’s a recognised fact 🤷🏻‍♀️

Mentioning children on a thread about children is droning on? Hmmm ok.

Can you not see that this is a deeply concerning issue around vaccine passports, people will not and do not want to be controlled via an app.

I thought they weren’t bothering with vaccine passports? And what is this app, should I have it?

There’s a fair bit of confusion on this thread.

A couple of observations:

1. On the current data, the vaccines stop the majority of infections, even with delta.

1. Case rates are still high, with a variant that has reduced VE (but again, they still prevent the majority of infections). That means the levels of breakthrough infection will be higher.

1. Vaccine effectiveness and waning both vary by age. eg VE against symptomatic disease starts out lower in older groups, and waning happens faster. Waning is much more muted in the under 65s. (John Burn-Murdoch has a good data visualisation of a recent PHE preprint on this.)

Possibly the US @Geamhradh. It’s a bit mad over there.

@pontypridd

"I think because the whole situation is a shambles, the data and information is confusing. Experts are disagreeing. My opinion is that the whole thing is a mess, no one knows what they are doing with it.

You've summed it up for me there @Peteycat

There I was feeling confused, thinking it was just me. But you're right - I'm trying to read as much and listen and watch and understand. And I can't because all the so called experts don't understand what's going on either. It is a shambles."

I know. Everything is so conflicting, but you will get certain posters on here bamboozling the thread with reports THEY agree with, as if its set in stone.

This is obviously a sensitive, emotive subject for most parents right now, all I would say to any of them is if you have even the tiniest doubt. Just wait. The vaccines in adults might reduce transmission, but not enough for us to use it as evidence to mass vaccinate children just yet.

The risks for boys are enough for me to refuse right now.

This is becoming endemic, so therefore in my opinion another reason NOT to vaccinate children as it may have little or no benefit.

Also, for the argument regarding the wider society, in no way should we as adults ever compromise our childrens health for the sake of our own.

This is becoming endemic, so therefore in my opinion another reason NOT to vaccinate children as it may have little or no benefit.

What do you mean by this @Peteycat?

If a child has not yet been infected, there is a strong rationale for vaccination to offer protection before this happens, rather than after. Given the endemic status of CV it is almost certain that exposure will happen and so not sure why you're using it as a argument here?

@JassyRadlett - You say posters on here are confused. Please explain:

What do you mean by this exactly?

1. On the current data, the vaccines stop the majority of infections, even with delta.

What is this data?

@ Whatdoyawannado my understanding of the 12+ age groups is they won't give a 2nd vaccine because of the increased possibility of side effects. Myocarditis being one

"13:57MrsFezziwig

Can you not see that this is a deeply concerning issue around vaccine passports, people will not and do not want to be controlled via an app.

I thought they weren’t bothering with vaccine passports? And what is this app, should I have it?"

They haven't implemented them this month, however there is still time. How many times have the government backtracked? The app is the NHS app that has been marketed and plugged for a while now.

[quote pontypridd]**@JassyRadlett - You say posters on here are confused. Please explain:

What do you mean by this exactly?

1. On the current data, the vaccines stop the majority of infections, even with delta.

What is this data?[/quote]
not the pp but for example - here's one study:

@JassyRadlett prob has more relevant/recent stuff :)

With the BNT162b2 vaccine, the effectiveness of two doses was 93.7% (95% CI, 91.6 to 95.3) among persons with the alpha variant and 88.0% (95% CI, 85.3 to 90.1) among those with the delta variant. With the ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine, the effectiveness of two doses was 74.5% (95% CI, 68.4 to 79.4) among persons with the alpha variant and 67.0% (95% CI, 61.3 to 71.8) among those with the delta variant.

www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2108891

@bumbleymummy

Possibly the US *@Geamhradh*. It’s a bit mad over there.

Ah OK. I know Spain had them for over 6s. Here it was from middle school onwards (11-12 up) Thanks.

@riveted1

"
This is becoming endemic, so therefore in my opinion another reason NOT to vaccinate children as it may have little or no benefit.

What do you mean by this @Peteycat?

If a child has not yet been infected, there is a strong rationale for vaccination to offer protection before this happens, rather than after. Given the endemic status of CV it is almost certain that exposure will happen and so not sure why you're using it as a argument here?"

Well because if the vaccine in adults isn't stopping transmission for one, and for two let's face it, Covid isn't really a huge threat to most healthy children. The government has actually stated this on their website. I would think that most children have already been exposed to coronavirus and have antibodies. Therefore, I can't see the benefits of vaccination in children from covid right now.

@bumbleymummy

Possibly the US *@Geamhradh*. It’s a bit mad over there.

I don't think it's mad to worry, if 1 in 500 Americans died of/with covid.

@Megistotherium so you think it’s more deadly to 3 yr olds in the US than here? The data says otherwise.

What do you mean by this exactly?

There are a lot of statements that suggest, at best, confusion. Such as people saying vaccines don’t stop infections (they do, but a lower proportion against delta than alpha), that a person may be just as likely to be infected after being double vaccinated than not (untrue), that vaccines don’t lower transmission rates (untrue), that there is no difference in the vaccine levels needed for lasting immunity in different age groups (untrue).

What is this data?

There’s quite a bit. PHE publishes it regularly as part of vaccine surveillance reports. Here is the ONS work. REACT and other studies also look at this.

The reason we even talk about breakthrough infections is because the vaccines can prevent infection (and by association transmission rates, though we don’t have good data on secondary transmission from infected individuals.)

It's definitely deadly there at the moment since it's spreading like wildfire. I've read the article that the 4 year old girl without any underlying condition died few days ago.

@riveted1

Thank you for the data - but what does effectiveness mean?

@JassyRadlett stated "stop the majority of infections" I don't believe the percentage of effectiveness applies to that though - does it? It applies to how ill someone becomes/hospitalization instead.

I've read the article that the 4 year old girl without any underlying condition died few days ago.

Can we have a link please @Megistotherium?

@JassyRadlett stated "stop the majority of infections" I don't believe the percentage of effectiveness applies to that though - does it? It applies to how ill someone becomes/hospitalization instead.

No, it’s split into effectiveness against infection, effectiveness against severe disease/hospitalisation, and effectiveness against death. Some studies also look at effectiveness against symptomatic infection.

The effectiveness against the latter two has held up incredibly well at very high levels. It’s effectiveness against infection that has taken a hit with delta.

Sorry just looked at the NEJM piece @riveted1 shared (🙂) - which is looking at PCR-confirmed symptomatic infection, looking up to May.

@pontypridd here you go.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/texas-covid-girl-anti-vax-mom-b1918895.html

If the vaccines perform as expected I don’t think people would be surprised if observed VE against infection actually increases as younger age groups get their second dose, given how differently the vaccines perform against all metrics in over 65s vs younger demographics.

And this one.
www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-08-27/4-year-old-child-youngest-to-die-of-covid-19-in-riverside-county

Poor wee girl.

The effectiveness against the latter two has held up incredibly well at very high levels. It’s effectiveness against infection that has taken a hit with delta.

I definitely agree with the last bit (well I agree with all of it really). I've caught covid from DD and whilst I feel completely shit it is like an awful cold, certainly nothing to worry about so far. If protection against Delta is 67% I assume that means that near enough 1 in 3 vaccinated people exposed to covid will catch it but only a tiny tiny amount will be hospitalised and even fewer will die.