BMJ: Teachers not at greater risk of hosp'n, and lower risk of severe disease, than general population

[Kokeshi123]

www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2060?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=hootsuite&utm_content=sme&utm_campaign=usage

Unlike previous studies, this one actually looked at periods when schools were open and compared like-with-like for those periods.

Compared with adults of working age who are otherwise similar, teachers and their household members were not found to be at increased risk of hospital admission with covid-19 and were found to be at lower risk of severe covid-19. These findings should reassure those who are engaged in face-to-face teaching.

This should not be taken to mean that we should do schooling with no mitigations whatsoever--I'd be in favor of doing indoor masks for kids and teachers till the winter is over if it was up to me, and ventilation is always a good thing anyway. However, at least this should provide some reassurance for teachers and families. And in my opinion, this kind of thing should settle the argument on having any further school closures; mitigations are one thing, but schools absolutely must remain open IMO.

Ok so do you deny that the the unions were calling for school closures?

That isn't what you said. You said that schools were closed BECAUSE of the advocacy / lobbying of teaching unions.

Preachers on Speakers' Corner can call for repentance because the end of the world is nigh. It doesn't mean that anything happens as a result.

Unions, in January, were stating that schools were unsafe workplaces. The government closed schools as part of the lockdown a few hours later, not because of them being unsafe workplaces, but because they were advised that the spiralling illnesss and death rates could not be brought down while schools were open (while continuing to deny that Covid could be transmitted in schools, incidentally). the two are not cause and effect - they both had the same root cause (spiralling numbers) but the union's call did not shut the schools. the Government did that despite the unions, not because of them.

And, as I say again, a school closed due to union action was closed for precisely 4 hours more than the schools closed due to the Government's decision to close schools based on medical grounds.

Unions - maximum 4 hours.

Government based on medical / public health advice - weeks and months.

Still the unions' fault?? Are you sure?

But there are a very large number of posters on MN who respond to even slightly worried posts on MN with 'But MY teacher is SO HAPPY to be in school - she told me that herself this morning. You must HATE children and need to leave teaching because you are OBVIOUSLY damaging children' (I exaggerate slightly, but not much!)

Well maybe not then, I just assumed most people who saw me smiling and happy at work would guess that actually, I'm not and would rather be on holiday! If anyone has ever described me as a HCP who loves her job - well... I should have gone into acting instead

Teaching IS largely acting - I think we are too good at it sometimes!

That isn't what you said. You said that schools were closed BECAUSE of the advocacy / lobbying of teaching unions

Ok you are right, that was badly worded. What I should have said was : closing schools is a political decision. The government closed schools due to political pressure. Part of that pressure came from the unions.

There are people on this thread saying “no one wants schools to close”, and , therefore, it is “gaslighting” to point out that closing schools is a bad policy choice.

That is so unbelievably wrong. If nobody wanted schools to close, they wouldn’t have closed. It doesn’t matter how high infections are or how high the death toll is,, covid doesn’t have the power to close schools. If there was no political will to shut schools, they would have remained open.

The government wanted schools to close because they realised covid spreads like wildfire in them. Pre vaccine, the NHS would have become overwhelmed. This has nothing to do with the teaching unions.

You seriously think that a Tory government give one shiny shit what the Unions think?

Well yes, cant, I often think that parents would be in uproar if they knew the real state that schools are in (both in terms of building and staffing). But we only show the best rooms at Open Evening (with the tables with the worst graffiti removed, the blinds fixed specially and the penises and holes in the walls covered up with posters), and the kids have a warm body in front of them even when the school is really struggling for teachers.

But that's because we have to market ourselves professionally as a business and put a good front onto parents who don't want to hear that their kid hasn't had a qualified maths teacher for 6 months.

And I know of many parents busting a gut to get their kids into one local school where my friend works. If they only knew what I know from him!!!

because they realised covid spreads like wildfire in them

Actually it is still hotly disputed whether schools play much of a role in driving the pandemic and in particular in driving up the death toll.

In any case, I have already acknowledged my initial phrasing was poor. I have tried to clarify:

1. closing schools is a political choice.

2. schools closed because there was political will to close them.

3. teachers unions were advocating/ lobbying hard for schools to close.
   (I also think they had a lot of public sympathy in this regard which also put some pressure on the government- Tory or not).

4. it is not “gaslighting” to argue that closing schools is a bad policy decision.

4) it is not “gaslighting” to argue that closing schools is a bad policy decision.

Not remotely what I was calling out as verging on gaslighting. You are literally gaslighting a gaslighting comment. Bravo!

@cantkeepawayforever

And INDIVIDUAL staff will continue to suffer - from not being able to visit vulnerable relatives due to the risk of carrying infection from their workplace, from having to carry out childcare due to temporary closures, from having to provide online and in person education simultaneously, from being ill.

So like many other professionals / workers then? They will still have their own challenges when trying to carry out their work.

As I already said I worry more that I will pass it on to someone vulnerable, rather than them giving it to me, but short of not doing my job I carry that risk every day.

Bizawit

Except for point 3 your points are correct.

Although 4 as you point out is disputed.

@ChloeDecker

4) it is not “gaslighting” to argue that closing schools is a bad policy decision.

Not remotely what I was calling out as verging on gaslighting. You are literally gaslighting a gaslighting comment. Bravo!

Perhaps I misunderstood you, but from what I understood- you said that no one wanted schools to close and therefore it was gaslighting for a pp to say that schools should never be shut again.

@FrippEnos

Bizawit

Except for point 3 your points are correct.

Although 4 as you point out is disputed.

So you are saying that the unions weren’t advocating/ lobbying for schools to close?

Bizawit

Already posted a response to that upthread. Twice.

I am no epidemiologist but it occurs to me that a comparator group of "healthcare workers" would be a rather poor study design. Are not health care workers more likely to be exposed to covid because they are working in hospitals where there are sick people?

It doesn't seem surprising or reassuring to me.

Disclaimer: i am not and never have been a teacher.

@MissTrip82 - according to British statistics, teachers didn't have a high mortality rate, certainly not third.

More specifically, these were the jobs with the highest death rates from Covid for women:
social workers (32.4 deaths per 100,000 females; 25 deaths)
national government administrative occupations (27.9 deaths per 100,000 females; 26 deaths)
sales and retail assistants (26.9 deaths per 100,000 females; 111 deaths)
managers and directors in retail and wholesale (26.7 deaths per 100,000 females, 24 deaths)
nursing auxiliaries and assistants (25.3 deaths per 100,000 females; 54 deaths)
nurses (24.5 deaths per 100,000 females; 110 deaths)
The figures cover the period from March 9 to December 28, 2020.
Covid-19 death rates for men and women working as teaching and educational professionals, such as secondary school teachers, were not statistically significantly raised compared with rates for the wider working population, the ONS found.

There was a misconception that they did, but the facts don't play out, hence my initial comment. The rhetoric and fear interning was that the teaching profession was at extremely high risk- this wasn't the case. That was my point

@FrippEnos

Bizawit

Already posted a response to that upthread. Twice.

I just don’t see how you can maintain that position. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Just from a quick google- Here an article from Feb, quoting them saying that it is “madness” to open schools on the 8th March. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2021/feb/22/teaching-unions-warn-against-big-bang-return-to-school

From January:

“A union leader claimed what was right for London was right for the rest of the country and called on ministers to "do their duty" and close all primary and secondary schools to contain the coronavirus.”

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/teaching-unions-tell-pm-do-your-duty-and-close-all-schools-in-england-to-limit-covid-threat-12177145

Do you think the govt takes advice from the unions, Biz?

Bizawit

Just from the link and not from the article.

That would be about the return to school and not about closing schools.

And from the article unions ask for a phased return (like other UK countries) with stricter measures.

So hardly calling for schools to close.

@FrippEnos

Bizawit

Just from the link and not from the article.

That would be about the return to school and not about closing schools.

And from the article unions ask for a phased return (like other UK countries) with stricter measures.

So hardly calling for schools to close.

And what about this one then?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/teaching-unions-tell-pm-do-your-duty-and-close-all-schools-in-england-to-limit-covid-threat-12177145

@noblegiraffe

Do you think the govt takes advice from the unions, Biz?

I think we’ve exhausted this point upthread.

Right so trying to pin school closures on teaching unions is a special kind of teacher bashing.