No vaccines for healthy 12-15 Yr olds

[Wellbythebloodyhell]

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccines-will-not-be-recommended-for-healthy-children-aged-12-to-15-government-advisers-say-12398444

Is anyone else glad this potential decision has been taken away? I was very much undecided about vaccinating my older dc and now feel a bit of a weight has been lifted now its not something I need to consider.

(It makes me want to come home--especially after those nutty people in Oregon went to protest at the actual schools and they had to institute a lockdown. English people may be similarly foolish on rare occasions, but they are generally not armed.)

@Nancydrawn I'm American and I won't raise my kids there right now. Probably not ever at this point, unless there's a sea change in the culture somehow.

I really think the JCVI members are going to have to say more to the public than what they've said so far, and clarify their reasoning to us. I'd love to know how they came to their conclusions, given the American back-to-school numbers you've posted there.

It's telling when the public health chiefs are audibly biting their tongues on live news radio. Because they'll be looking at those figures too.

I think that's the best point I've heard so far about this: that they really need to clarify. My friends are left very puzzled, not least because they've been talking to me about the huge CDC drive to vaccine 12-17s.

I think some people are conflating two different issues here. Children being exposed to covid in in-person classes is a virtual certainty, and that's something every parent who chooses that option needs to understand. The back-to-school figures that track cases, exposures, and quarantines will always look terrible by those metrics, just as they would for colds and flu if anyone cared to track them the same way.

But that's irrelevant to the real question: Is covid sufficient dangerous to healthy 12-15s that reducing its severity justifies the known and potential unknown effects of this vaccine? I'm not surprised that the answer is no, because those of us who paid attention to the numbers have been saying this whole time that covid really isn't that dangerous for healthy children. I do agree with those who've said that since it isn't that dangerous, they need to stop doing things like forcing students to quarantine and closing schools based on case numbers.

People in the US (and probably elsewhere) have been demanding emergency authorization for vaccines for under-12s for what feels like forever. The holdup in doing it made me suspect that there are safety issues. This pretty much confirms that. Yes, the US went in a different directing with regard to 12-15s, but I think more and more issues will emerge with younger age groups. They're the least likely to have severe covid, and the most likely to have severe side effects from the vaccines.

I agree that parents should have the choice when the absolute risks of both options are relatively small, but I think it's important to keep in mind that we're talking about children who can't make a meaningful choice themselves. If an adult wants to risk their own health because doing so reduces the risk to others, that's laudable. An adult risking their child's health for the same reason is much more questionable. That would be true even if vaccination reduced the risk of transmission to zero, which it doesn't - not even close. Despite what some keep trying to prove by fiat, it's not clear that it reduces it at all.

The same evidence JCVI have looked at has been looked at by other countries and they are vaccinating their 12-15 year olds. Some info here on stats twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1433800639058939910?s=21
I think they will come around to this again and change their mind in the next couple of months.

It’s looking like the vaccine might be offered to over 12s after all. I’ve seen reports from a few sources saying the Government are willing to go against JCVIs advice. They want Witty to look at the wider benefits of vaccinating children, including the educational benefits.

If they do, will they do it in schools, like the flu? It’s going to be pretty contentious, if MN is a mirror of reality (I don’t think it is).
They have missed the opportunity to do it way sooner and restart school now with a % of vaccinated; instead of a % of kids with Covid caught at the tail end of the summer term. If they start in a month or so, it’s not going to do any difference against a fall surge. And if they don’t facilitate it and make it in school they might not have a meaningful uptake. ALL my kids friends in Italy 12+ have already been double vaxxed (and despite this will start school still with shifts- reduced classroom occupancy- and masks). The few whose parents have not yet approved it (generally a separated father who just wants to piss off the mother- in Italy you need parental consent under 18) are now coming ‘round because the alternative is doing paid-for-tests every 3 days or so, even to take the bus or a local train to go to school.

@itsgettingwierd

So effectively in a 20 day period you've taught the curriculum and either have to revisit or those children have still missed whole chunks of learning. Baring I'm kind of you revisit your plans for weeks 5 and 6 over weeks 7 and 8 that 2 weeks of further stuff in the curriculum you haven't yet taught.

Well the best solution isn't to insist on the 10 day isolation, which is now pretty pointless for all the good it will do. If children just stayed at home when they were too ill to come in then many wouldn't be off at all, and few would be off for longer than a few days. Yes, some education will be missed, but it seems like the least worst option to me. Given current case numbers, the former system would have had children being at home "isolating" for half the year as we artificially extend the impact of the pandemic over a far longer period than needed.

@cherin

If they do, will they do it in schools, like the flu? It’s going to be pretty contentious, if MN is a mirror of reality (I don’t think it is). They have missed the opportunity to do it way sooner and restart school now with a % of vaccinated; instead of a % of kids with Covid caught at the tail end of the summer term. If they start in a month or so, it’s not going to do any difference against a fall surge. And if they don’t facilitate it and make it in school they might not have a meaningful uptake. ALL my kids friends in Italy 12+ have already been double vaxxed (and despite this will start school still with shifts- reduced classroom occupancy- and masks). The few whose parents have not yet approved it (generally a separated father who just wants to piss off the mother- in Italy you need parental consent under 18) are now coming ‘round because the alternative is doing paid-for-tests every 3 days or so, even to take the bus or a local train to go to school.

Apparently within weeks but they have been saying that about boosters for weeks.

I would have thought the easiest place for most children would be in schools.

I was under the impression that the NHS had been planning for boosters and children’s vaccines but they were just waiting for the go ahead. I might be wrong though.

They could run it similar to the flu nasal spray, which requires parental consent and a nurse going to each school.

@Butterfly44

The same evidence JCVI have looked at has been looked at by other countries and they are vaccinating their 12-15 year olds. Some info here on stats twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1433800639058939910?s=21 I think they will come around to this again and change their mind in the next couple of months.

By then it will be too late, as in those two months Covid will have swept through schools and the bulk of children will have acquired natural immunity.

Even if they had decided "yes" to vaccines yesterday, it would likely have been too late to have rolled out a programme with any practical effect given term has started, or is about to start, for many... and any rollout would take weeks. Covid infection would outpace it.

I’ve thought about this (as I’m sure most parents have) for a while now. On balance I don’t think I would vaccinate DS (12), purely based on the current evidence that post vaccine myocarditis seems to be more prevalent in boys than girls. For him, I’m yet to be convinced the health benefits outweigh the risks.

@AlecTrevelyan006

It will go like this...

1. JCVI say marginal benefit but no 'need' other than potential wider societal

2. Gov. ask their panel of 'experts' "is there a wider societal need"?

3. Panel says "yes"

4. Gov jab 12yr old because the science experts said we need to

5. JCVI are clear of blame

6. Faceless experts will say "we were only looking at avoiding disruption to education"

7. Government will say whatever it likes because it gave up giving a shit what we think a long time ago

Alec has it absolutely spot on.

@BoredZelda

We don’t usually vaccinate 12-15 year olds for the flu, no. We do in Scotland.

I have a 15 year old (am in Scotland) and this is the first year since he went to high school he has been offered the flu vaccine.

Preech

Today Programme confidently reporting that the Govt. is going to overrule the JCVI and that Chris Whitty is in favour of approval. Says a Govt. minister (not named) has said the roll out will start within days.

The amount of parents in here annoyed at the decision is staggering.

My mind is completely blown as to why you would want to give your child a medical intervention with less than 12 months data.

Don’t worry though, I’m sure the government will go ahead with it.

This seems a sensible decision and I'm very pleased they made it based on the health of children rather than other factors like the impact on education.

I do find it funny though that a thread on here ages ago asking if you'd vaccinate your dc and loads of posters were saying, oh of course I would vaccinate my dc, why not?! There is a tendency amongst some to not show any reluctance as proof they're so much cleverer than conspiracy theorist types. What you saying now huh?!

I'm amazed that parents will trust their children's health to the decision of politicians who have overriden the actual experts.

Looks like it will go ahead, according to radio 4 this morning.
I would like to see something included along the lines of it is illegal in any way to exclude unvaccinated teens from any activities or any other purpose - in perpetuity.
One good thing in this whole palaver is the JCVI decision stops the mission creep to vaccinating below 12’s (which is the next battle ground imo) or at least makes it much harder for sensible people to argue for.

My children are younger but based on the data currently available I wouldn't vaccinate them if they were in the right age bracket. The infection rates show that the vaccine has little effect on transmission, the risk of the virus to healthy children is tiny... What is the point of vaccinating them and putting them at risk of myocarditis?

Can I just point out(again) that the rates of 60 per million of myocarditis are in boys. For girls it is 2 per million. Interesting that the number (which is still low) that has been latched on to is the 60. And I agree with beware that comparing this number with the number that end up in ICU with covid is a bit disingenuous. Why not compare with the number of hospitalisations??

And why not tell us the number who develop myocarditis as a result of covid?

And one of the groups they are now recommending for a vaccine are those with congenital heart disease, which rather points to the fact that covid itself has a nasty habit of attacking the heart.

@Tittyfilarious81

I'd already decided my children will not be vaccinated so I'm glad about this decision it means they won't be under pressure to get vaccinated when they go back to school

Well as long as your happy 😠what about all those children who actually want the vaccine , where is their choice?

Here, for example (makes one wonder about why they are still vaccing males up to 30??If it's such a concern)

The chances of developing myocarditis as a result of covid are 450 per millionin males aged 12-17.(and that's pre Delta)

Mild cases of myocarditis can be treated with ibuprofen.

@walksen

"We don’t usually vaccinate 12-15 year olds for the flu, no"

We did in England last year, too. At least they did in the school I worked at. A powder squirted up the nose with a plastic syringe.

Nasal flu was offered to year 7 and below last year. Schools for children with SEN are always offered it up to year 11. It’s a liquid that’s sprayed up each nostril. For those that object to the porcine element you will be able to request IM flu.

Sorry, forgot source

www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/

Mild cases of myocarditis can be treated with ibuprofen

You genuinely don't know the long-term potential effects to the heart of someone who has had myocarditis, even supposedly "mild".

(Not two words I ever saw together much until very recently).