1000+ in ventilator beds already & school return with no household isolation

[RumblyMumbly]

Number of people in ventilator beds 1,014 on 31/08/21

It has been a steady / manageable rise since restrictions lifted in mid May when there were 125 patients in ventilator beds & while obviously awful for the people affected and their families this means the NHS has coped while there has been a lot of Covid cases

Does anyone else feel we may be at the tipping point? Schools in England mostly return this week for Autumn term.

If we compare with last years school return there were only 71 ventilator beds occupied on 31/08/20. Yes, we now have 64% of the total population double vaccinated which puts us in a far better situation than last year when the population had no protection. However, we had household isolations this time last year for positive cases, this year other household members of a positive case will be attending school and workplaces alongside everyone else and generally people will begin meeting indoors much more over the next few months.

Purpose of my post - nervousness about what will happen next...I don't want schools to close at all, children have already had 2 years of disrupted education. But to give my own personal experience - obviously other peoples differ - secondary remote learning can work if absolutely necessary (full schedule of lessons / homework) but primary remote learning (1hr lesson per day) did not work AT ALL & the vast majority of primary aged children are not ready to become independent learners while parents are in an impossible situation as they can't work and moonlight as a teacher.

I hope SAGE / the Government are watching the figures very closely and if we need a circuit breaker in October to keep the NHS manageable they act fast.

*I meant mitigations e.g. better sick pay, measures to increase ventilation, rather than covid restrictions.

The UK is extremely weak on mitigations.*

That's what you meant?

Really?

Actually, Britain's furlough payments have been very generous compared to many European countries. Which specific sick pay and 'measures to increase ventilation' were you referring to in Spain, for example?

@Warhertisuff

To follow on from my last post... You're right; it doesn't have to be all or nothing, it's just that the "something" you're proposing (continued bans on large gatherings etc) is still unacceptable.

Well let’s hope that the situation allows the unacceptable to remain that way, that’s a win win for everybody in the end. Public opinion is fickle though and I wouldn’t expect it to take much for the mood to change.

@IcedPurple the UK furlough scheme was 'generous' aka expensive, but due to being rushed (as we had no scheme pre-prepped unlike Germany/France, due to little pandemic preparedness) was open to fraud and was very stop-start causing lots of problems for both business and employees. Also the 3 million people eligible for zero support in the UK. Plus the lack of flexibility over e.g. part-time furlough. The levels of fraud are high in UK, it cost a bomb. And in business/economy terms has ended too early (some sectors still not viable).

An example mitigation in Spain was the additional legal protection for working parents/carers who had isolating children/relatives.

The UK response was very weak, which is attributed to:

• failure to develop robust pandemic plan (other countries had wider-reaching plans, even though also focused on flu outbreaks)
• corrupt contract-awarding
• over-reliance on public-sector
• long-term underfunding of key services since 2010 crash e.g. cuts to public health teams

Regarding measures to increase ventilation - UK is bottom of the league table on this, especially in schools.

Sorry - should read 'over-reliance on private sector'

An example mitigation in Spain was the additional legal protection for working parents/carers who had isolating children/relatives.

But you mentioned sick pay. Can you detail how it is so much generous than in Britain? Ditto with the furlough scheme.

I ask because you specifically mentioned Spain as an example of a country with superior 'mitigations' (using your new definition of the term).

The top and bottom of it, is sadly people die.

Take the post parallel to this, with the tragic case of Sarah Harding, bless her heart, she was only 39. No kids, just told at what 37/38? That’s she’s got cancer and will die.

That poor lady only lived half of what would be the average UK life expectancy. THIS IS tragic. I know too many people that this has happened to. I’m actually going to a funeral tomorrow of a someone who passed away in early 40’s leaving 2 young kids behind. My heart breaks for this family.

You’re lucky if you love beyond 80 is my experience of life, because I know so many people that die young.

So no, I certainly would be getting my children (who’ve both had covid) vaccinated to help anyone other than them.

@IcedPurple

An example mitigation in Spain was the additional legal protection for working parents/carers who had isolating children/relatives.

But you mentioned sick pay. Can you detail how it is so much generous than in Britain? Ditto with the furlough scheme.

I ask because you specifically mentioned Spain as an example of a country with superior 'mitigations' (using your new definition of the term).

Loving the use of 'ditto'

Maybe you didn't read what I posted, I said There are so many mitigations in e.g. Germany/Spain/Denmark that we will not get here for structural, cultural and political reasons

I did not specify sick pay in Spain, you have specified that - but sick pay is higher in almost all European countries as it goes, and Spain has good welfare.

I have dealt with furlough above.

If you think the UK has good support for citizens/subjects, this is not the case when compared with most European nations.

In other words, I would never advocate another lockdown as my DC mental health has suffered and I’m more concerned about them, than trying to preserve the life of those that either didn’t take the vaccine or that are of an age where they’re older than the life expectancy……

Oh, and it isn't a new definition of 'mitigations', there are restrictions e.g. you can't meet indoors, and mitigations e.g. open a window if you meet indoors.

If you think the UK has good support for citizens/subjects, this is not the case when compared with most European nations.

Not sure why you're mentioning British 'subjects' when the category was all but abolished decades ago.

And you still haven't explained why Spain has better 'mitigations' in your new and idiosyncratic 'definition' of the term.

We'll, obviously restrictions do mitigate risk, but there are loads of mitigations that don't rely on restrictions, is what I am trying to say.

@lannistunut

We'll, obviously restrictions do mitigate risk, but there are loads of mitigations that don't rely on restrictions, is what I am trying to say.

Only when it was pointed out that Denmark was planning to drop all restrictions.

@lannistunut

We'll, obviously restrictions do mitigate risk, but there are loads of mitigations that don't rely on restrictions, is what I am trying to say.

Masks on public transport, ventilation in schools, speedier decisions etc, that sort of thing?

@IcedPurple

If you think the UK has good support for citizens/subjects, this is not the case when compared with most European nations.

Not sure why you're mentioning British 'subjects' when the category was all but abolished decades ago.

And you still haven't explained why Spain has better 'mitigations' in your new and idiosyncratic 'definition' of the term.

I explained the example above of additional workplace protection for parents/carers in Spain. You don't seem to read the actual words posted.

Only when it was pointed out that Denmark was planning to drop all restrictions. We'll, no, I was just pointing out you were mistaken - Denmark are dropping restrictions but still will have other mitigations.

@beentoldcomputersaysno yes, exactly - opening a window does not restrict but does mitigate risk.

Lockdown is not desirable and only employed where all else has failed.

Agree. Think we are very lax on that. Where we have had to go into lockdowns, we ended up doing it too late at greater health, personal and financial cost.

I explained the example above of additional workplace protection for parents/carers in Spain. You don't seem to read the actual words posted.

I did read it, but googling one 'measure' doesn't mean their entire system is superior, which is why I'm asking.

Also, these aren't 'mitigations' in the sense normally used in this discussion, which is why I'm saying you've 'redefined' the term.

Also, these aren't 'mitigations'.

The biggest one that frustrates me is we have been discussing, on here, since schools first went back (June 2020?), about the need for investment in ventilation. Nothing has been done. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing!

@lannistunut

Only when it was pointed out that Denmark was planning to drop all restrictions. We'll, no, I was just pointing out you were mistaken - Denmark are dropping restrictions but still will have other mitigations.

Other than border controls, which pandemic 'mitigations' are you referring to, specifically?

@lannistunut

The biggest one that frustrates me is we have been discussing, on here, since schools first went back (June 2020?), about the need for investment in ventilation. Nothing has been done. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing!

Yep, me too.

@IcedPurple

I explained the example above of additional workplace protection for parents/carers in Spain. You don't seem to read the actual words posted.

I did read it, but googling one 'measure' doesn't mean their entire system is superior, which is why I'm asking.

Also, these aren't 'mitigations' in the sense normally used in this discussion, which is why I'm saying you've 'redefined' the term.

Also, these aren't 'mitigations'.

I take exception to this snottiness googling one 'measure - I didn't Google anything, I just answered in a chatty way with some of the things I know. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to provide your own analysis of the UK furlough system in comparison to Germany's - but your approach of groundless sniping is bullshit.

If you think I'm wrong, feel free to provide your own analysis of the UK furlough system in comparison to Germany's

I never questioned that though, did I?

I asked why you are so certain that the sick pay system in Spain is superior to Britain's. It was you who mentioned 'sick pay' as a 'mitigation' and specified Spain after all. Not me.

@IcedPurple

If you think I'm wrong, feel free to provide your own analysis of the UK furlough system in comparison to Germany's

I never questioned that though, did I?

I asked why you are so certain that the sick pay system in Spain is superior to Britain's. It was you who mentioned 'sick pay' as a 'mitigation' and specified Spain after all. Not me.

Again, I think you have struggled to read the words posted.

I ask genuinely - what is the purpose of your abrasive posting style? What do you seek to achieve?

*Again, I think you have struggled to read the words posted.

I ask genuinely - what is the purpose of your abrasive posting style? What do you seek to achieve?*

If calling you out on your failure to provide evidence and constant moving of goalposts is 'abrasive', that's fine.

You're clearly unable to back up your own hastily made claims so maybe best to leave it at that and spare you any further 'abrasiveness'.