Mandatory vaccine

[Walkingalone21]

What are peoples thoughts on the mandatory vaccine for all care home workers? If they choose not to have the vaccine they will loose their jobs on the 11th November 2021.
By now all of the residents will have been double jabbed and the majority of the care staff also. I think this is madness in an already under staffed industry especially as there is still no evidence that the vaccine stops or reduces the transmission. In a bid to protect the residents they will be putting them at risk by the severe shortage of staff.
I have so many questions around this.
Natural antibodies have the same if not better protection for the individual. Should that be taken into account too?
It seems that staff are being bullied and threatened into getting vaccinated by being told they will loose their jobs. Where is their choice in a sector that’s core values are care, empowerment and human rights?
Last years hero’s, this years unemployed it’s seems.

Anybody working with vulnerable (Covid vulnerable) people should be vaccinated.
How do you think the number of deaths among carehome residents happened? Because visitors and staff took it in..
Thankfully all careworkers I come across were only too happy to be vaccinated.

There's already staff shortages in the sector (e.g. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58025444). I know someone personally who's found a new job because she didn't want the vaccine.

I think this is going to be a disaster for staffing on a practical level. I'm also against it philosophically - I wouldn't object, I think, to it being applied to new workers, but I don't think you should be told to have a medical procedure, however minor, in order to keep your job.

I agree that it’s necessary.

@Geamhradh possibly. But the main reason was the hospitals trying to bed clear and pumping an influx of covid positive cases into care homes, in turn passing it on to staff.
I have heard of a number of cases where homes were told they were negative over the phone and when asked for the PRC test results, turned out they were positive.
The vaccine does not stop or reduce the transmission as far as the data says. The vaccine reduces the risk of the individual getting seriously ill and needing hospital treatment.

I agree with you that immunity after infection should also be taken into consideration. There are plenty of studies now that show durable immunity in the majority. It’s not guaranteed but neither is immunity after the vaccine and we’re prepared to accept that. I don’t think people should be losing their jobs when they are immune already so can not be considered a risk to those in their care.

The vaccine does not stop or reduce the transmission as far as the data says

If this was true then yes there would be no argument for making it mandatory for HCPs and I would be completely against the policy.

But it's false - vaccines significantly reduce transmission which forms the entire basis of why this is being put forward @Walkingalone21

Well, I had a vaccine because I want to go back to work in this sector. No other reason. I wouldn’t have even been able to apply for roles.

Unfortunately, I’m one of the ones that has had severe and on going problems since I had the vaccine, ongoing medication and hospital treatment. So I won’t be having a second one.

So now I can’t go back to work anyway.

I'm against mandatory vaccination in general. Infections can still be brought in by vaccinated workers as well as family, unvaccinated or not. To me making it mandatory doesn't make much sense because these vaccines do not give sterilising immunity.

And I think that it will bring an industry already on its knees for staff (low pay, poorly treated, long hours, dealing with personal care etc), to breaking point.

I’ve worked in so many places over the years, always short of staff, always recruiting, the turnover of staff was staggering as it’s not a nice job and not many people are cut out for it.

I’ve worked in places so short staffed that people are are being washed and dressed for the day at 5am as there are too few staff to deal with everyone. It’s just been a conveyor belt of washing/feeding/personal care/bed with no time for anything else in between.

This is going to be detrimental to the care of vulnerable people.

The UK is not alone in this policy. Many other countries have it too.

It isn't perfect and the care home I am familiar with allows the residents to go and stay with family and this is the source of the cases at this care home, because clearly no-one tests the family or the visitors the family home, or checks their vaccination status.

But in principle this policy does significantly reduce the amount of infection brought into the care home by staff, plus offers staff some protection against infections in residents who have caught Covid from their families.

I think it will be like all the other major shifts occurring the labour market as a whole. People will move into the sector who aren't currently there. Maybe more work will be undertaken by vaccinated students and other vaccinated young people who are at risk of unemployment from other economic sectors at the moment. Many other economic sectors are in upheaval at the moment and are going through a large adjustment (agriculture, hospitality, even the NHS is massively short of staff that will need to be replaced following Brexit and Covid restrictions), so I guess the care sector is another area where there will be some upheaval followed by adjustment and in the end things will settle down and look slightly different. The good news is that the labour market has never looked so good for those seeking new employment so if you don't want to get vaccinated, it does not equal unemployment.

Why do people keep repeating the false claim that vaccines do not stop infection or transmission? They don't stop disease or transmission in everyone, but they stop disease in some people, cause mild or asymptomatic disease in others and significantly reduce transmission. Just because something isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it isn't incredibly beneficial in reducing transmission and disease burden.

@Ontopofthesunset

Why do people keep repeating the false claim that vaccines do not stop infection or transmission? They don't stop disease or transmission in everyone, but they stop disease in some people, cause mild or asymptomatic disease in others and significantly reduce transmission. Just because something isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it isn't incredibly beneficial in reducing transmission and disease burden.

Yes - @Walkingalone21 I'd be interested to know if you hold exactly the same viewpoint as in your OP now that you know this not to be the case?

I think pretty much everyone would be anti mandatory vaccination for certain roles if they thought they didn't reduce transmission, as there would be no point- it would just be about the individual benefit of vaccination.

I'm a doubly vaccinated care worker with covid, caught from an outbreak at work. 75% of staff and residents have it. The good news is that it looks like all of us have had it mildly and will be ok. The ones who haven't caught it have already had it, as well as being doubly vaccinated.
The biggest change in procedure recently has been those exposed not isolating, but doing an LFT daily instead and going to work/continuing as normal if negative.
My infection was caught on the weekly PCR test, I developed symptoms and tested positive on the LFT the day after I took the PCR test, but the day before I got the results from the PCR.
We've had residents mixing with those whose vaccination status is unknown for over a month, this outbreak happened within a week/ten days of the SI rules changing.
So in my experience (anecdotal) the vaccine has not stopped transmission or infection, but it looks like it's reduced severity of symptoms and illness.

I'd be interested to see over winter if that develops into a trend across care homes.

The main issue with mandating the vaccine however for me, is how it's been done. There's never been a suggestion in care work that vaccination for anything is a requirement, even childhood immunisations.
Instead of working with care workers towards a vaccination program that includes covid, providing information, training and ongoing support, it's been "Do it or else". That's not the way to get people to comply, especially in a job that's poor in terms of pay, conditions, training and recognition.

You can earn more working in a supermarket, get better conditions working in an office and more recognition being a bin man/woman. The government have done a really good job of discrediting care workers over this, and instead of working with them as a group to achieve what needs to be achieved, worked against them.

There's currently 1000 care workers vacancies in my county, we're already short staffed, most care workers are close to burn out and there's very little incentive to stay, we risk double vaccinated workers leaving due to being the ones left behind, having to do even more and burning out for other industries where jobs are available, and we risk people not suitable for the job, but with a double vaccination, taking their place.
No one's addressing this, and as someone left to pick up the pieces, that's worrying.

I don't agree with mandatory vaccines at all, and doing it on a sector like care work may backfire.

SIL is a carer. She was told to have the vaccine or would lose her job. The residents, their visiting families (adults and children) or any other external guest (physio, trades people etc) don't have to have the vaccine. It's caused a divide and that's just one home.

@Neron

Any visiting tradesperson or professional comes under this too. It's up to the care home to verify. Doesn't apply to residents or families, when it really should if it's about protecting the vulnerable surely?

Change 2: We are extending the requirement to be vaccinated to include all persons who enter a care home, regardless of their role (excluding those that have medical exemptions; residents of that care home; friends and family of residents who are visiting; those entering to assist with an emergency or carrying out urgent maintenance work ; and those under the age of 18). The requirement will apply to any professionals visiting a care home, such as healthcare workers, tradespeople, hairdressers and beauticians, and CQC inspectors. The requirement will not apply to people who only work in the outdoor surrounding grounds of care home premises.

It’s a slippery slope. Mandatory vaccines are not becoming of a progressive society where freedom of choice is heralded.

Remember face masks being mandatory? I’d love to know how those with false ‘exemptions’ would feel if they were threatened with the sack because they didn’t want to comply for whatever personal reason?

We are extending the requirement to be vaccinated to include all persons who enter a care home, regardless of their role

I think it's nuts, because you cannot prevent the virus getting into care homes (or anywhere). The vaccines do not have sterilising immunity therefore even if everyone is fully vaccinated, it will still be able to get in, even if the probability is lower. And once inside a care home where residents are very vulnerable, many will succumb to it, even if they're fully vaccinated, because their immune systems may be very weak.

Why we are chasing away qualified dedicated people who do these unpopular jobs is beyond me.

Ethically, I don't have any problem with it. I used to be a nurse, we were told to get vaccinated or go home. (With the available vaccines at that time). I think all patients and care home residents deserve to be cared for by people who have taken whatever precautions they can to protect them from infections.
Practically, it may well cause problems.
I also realise that many care home workers are treated badly, both pay wise and working conditions, and that needs to addressed. However, it's a separate issue from mandatory vaccinations.

But the ‘ethical’ argument falls down if the person is already immune anyway and not putting the people in their care at risk.

I think all patients and care home residents deserve to be cared for by people who have taken whatever precautions they can to protect them from infections.

Totally agree, so why has it taken a pandemic of a novel virus to introduce one vaccine to care home staff? The newest? No plans for any others except mumblings about maybe doing the same with the flu vaccine.
I also think care home staff deserve to be protected against things like hepatitis and flu.
If this really were about protecting the vulnerable then why has this never been an expectation before in care work?

I also realise that many care home workers are treated badly, both pay wise and working conditions, and that needs to addressed. However, it's a separate issue from mandatory vaccinations.

It's not a separate issue, the reluctance to engage and offer support and reassurance to care workers with concerns over the vaccine is a direct result of how they are viewed and treated. Their concerns are being mocked, belittled and laughed at. In addition to the way care workers are already treated many are deciding enough is enough and leaving.
Mandatory vaccination should be part of a major overhaul of social care services, where providers and government take their share of responsibilities, but nope, it's been all landed squarely on the workers again.

Interested to see when all staff are double vaccinated and covid is still in care homes and causing illness and death how we'll still be made the scapegoats by society.

I have already seen an entire double vaccinated home be overrun by an outbreak of covid. Yes the vaccine did reduce the death as expected but didn’t slow the transmission and it wasn’t without consequence for the residents and staff.

I am by no means anti vax and the vaccine plays a very important part in moving forwards with the pandemic however at the point people are being threatened with their jobs if they do not have the vaccine I just find very unethical. Especially when natural immunity isn’t being taken into account.
I work in a care home. I have done this job for the last 10 years. I have fought for people with no voice to have empowerment and choice. Their rights at the forefront of our minds at all times. The right to refuse is also on that list. Does that not apply to the staff also? If someone is able to make an informed decision, even if others disagree, should we not have the right to respect that?
What about all of the current laws that contradict the implementation of a mandatory vaccine?

Personally I went for the vaccine and was turned away due to me being super sensitive to medication and having reactions to the most stupid things. I do not take medication of any kind for this reason unless I’m in a hospital setting.
Whilst I was waiting for the doctors to look into it and give the thumbs up I started to receive threats of loosing my job. Another staff member for religious/cultural reasons also got the letter. She was so distressed about not being able to live if she lost her job had it and was distressed and sobbing after..... which got me thinking how is this ok?? I have had covid. I test my antibodies regularly. I take 4 covid tests a week and wear full PPE. If I was to suffer severe side effects from the vaccine then what would happen. My employer said that they would not be liable as it’s my choice to have it. It doesn’t look like a choice when I am being threatened with my job.

@Walkingalone21

Where do you stand currently regarding the vaccine? As in are you still at threat of losing your job if you can't have it?
I really disagree with telling someone it's a choice, therefore they're not liable if things go wrong, yet telling them if they don't make that choice, they lose their jobs. This is what I mean about care workers being treated badly - how is it fair to just cut them loose if the vaccine does go wrong if it's a mandatory requirement to keep the job? It's a bloody cop out being put on the workers - again.

I'm currently off with covid that's gone through our home, everyone double vaccinated, the only people who haven't caught it have had it before (residents and staff), that leads me to think that natural immunity from having had it is more effective than the vaccine, but that the vaccine has played it's part in stopping those who've caught it getting sick. It hasn't stopped transmission or infection.
Therefore the vaccine seems to offer individual protection against symptoms more than stopping transmission and infection in a group.
So in my example, the vaccine I had did very little to protect the residents, it may have protected me from worse symptoms etc, in the same way that their own vaccination protected them from worse symptoms.
It's anecdotal evidence admittedly, but you seem to have had a similar experience in your care home?

@bumbleymummy

But the ‘ethical’ argument falls down if the person is already immune anyway and not putting the people in their care at risk.

They won't be immune though, they will be partially protected. Vaccine doesn't confer 100% immunity, especially to the elderly.

Sorry Bumbleymummy , I meant - neither previous infection or vaccination confers 100% immunity. They both confer a level of protection, but not immunity.

I’m totally against mandatory vaccines especially as it does not stop you contracting, spreading or even dying from the virus.
I know there’s evidence that it reduces risk but there’s also evidence that young and healthy people and those who’ve already had covid are less affected.