Those of us who were ‘cannon fodder’- how do you feel?

[Onandoff]

I went to a gathering the other day with people who were privileged enough to still be working from home in highly paid city jobs. Their experiences were a stark contrast with mine. It was interesting to hear how protected they’d been, many still getting shopping delivered and only just resuming socialising. They hadn’t been on public transport at all. There was a general air of resentment at being asked to go back to offices and commute. They’d all saved money and were very worried about covid exposure despite being vaccinated. Apparently many workers have completely refused to return.

DH and I were the only key workers there and it brought home how exposed we’d been. Literally all of our family and colleagues caught it and some died or were left disabled. My mum died. In the hospital where I work 80% caught it in the first wave alone.

It’s been interesting to see through this that the jobs essential to society are (generally, appreciate some exceptions like medics) the worst paid. If we’d refused to go in or been redeployed we’d have been sacked. While the privileged middle class are still being pandered to despite vaccination.

I feel that those who went out to work should be financially compensated for the risk we took. At the very least we should be given tax breaks and not be expected to cough up for furlough costs.

And it’s interesting that if WFH was ‘significant sacrifices’ how many are agitating to continue it. I don’t have an issue at all with those who want to go back out to work or are doing so.

Why do you have an issue with those who want to continue to wfh though? I do not understand why anyone would care about someone in a different job attempting to negotiate more favourable terms for themselves with their employer. What difference does it make to you at all? And no, I’m not someone agitating to stay home.

”I am sorry but this is terribly naive. Yes, pandemic of this magnitude is a rare occurrence, but infectious diseases, epidemics etc (ie exposure to a health risk) are very much part of being in a medical field. I am surprised you actually needed anyone to TELL you that. I imagine one would do this basic level of research before going into healthcare.”

Well, if I was ‘terribly naive’, @nvcontrolfreakthen so were all my colleagues, tutors, senior tutors doctors, nurses and consultants I worked with, as none of them considered it was a sufficiently major risk for us all to be Warned and Prepared.

Frankly, they obviously thought it more important to train us to deal with the many situations and conditions were were likely to meet during our careers, rather than vanishingly unlikely ones - and back then it was decades since the last major epidemic in the UK, so none of my research before I commenced my training would have predicted the Covid pandemic - short of my acquiring a crystal ball!

What is it that you do op? You are a manager in the NHS?

Yes, what’s in the guidance is entirely the fault of the minister. And he’s responsible for how it’s written and when it’s published. See! Not so hard

Yes, I do see. I see that:

I’m immensely proud of my job and of being a civil servant and my work has a big impact

And yet when the accusation is that the work is terrible and the impact negative, it is entirely down to the minister.

Civil servants are very important and powerful until there’s any criticism, at which point they are mere vessels for the minister’s wishes.

I see exactly.

@namechange7865

Tories would smile with glee at the continued success of divide and rule if they saw this thread.

You're pointing fingers at the wrong people, look up.

Bollocks. Tories subsidised everybody rich or poor through furlough, self employment and universal credit money.

It’s public perception that if you d”on’t like a job you should change jobs”..without the huge bloody penny dropping that those horrible jobs are keeping us all going. As a society we should be making those key jobs more accessible not being snotty.
Who’s looking after after your mum with dementia by the way.?

@AfternoonToffee Well to be fair 25 years ago when I decided to train within the healthcare sector terrorist attacks and pandemics were not exactly something I considered. I was trained and working by the time 9/11 happened for example.

25 years ago is exactly when the IRA were launching terrorist attacks in the UK. I.e. Manchester bombing 1996. Were you not aware of the IRA being active in the UK in the 1990s?

Initially at the start of the pandemic I felt scared but prepared to knuckle down and get on with it. Everyone was doing their bit.
Staying home -reducing people on public transport, reducing Covid spread, reducing other NHS work in form of RTAs etc.

Now I feel resentful and despondent…. Covid admissions are rising in my area, talk of redeployment again and everything that goes with it but still people choose not to be vaccinated, government making decisions that don’t make sense, people attending big events, not wearing masks etc

It all feels a bit pointless

Possibly the policy advisers at the DfE are either sick ( Sam F), left in horror, or working on academisation and mobile phone bans. I really do genuinely believe Nick Gibb spoke with Jenny Harries about a few bits and bobs . By all accounts he is a control freak.

DS wants to be a civil servant. He is very principled. I might have to warn him of the realities of leaving principles at the door. But, as I said, I do still love them for that tweet. And I know less senior ones were/ still are bring terribly treated at the DVLA.

@Lightisnotwhite Bollocks. Tories subsidised everybody rich or poor through furlough, self employment and universal credit money.

That's simply not true. There were 3 million self employed/freelancers who fell through the net and weren't eligible for the SEISS support nor furlough. Many were excluded from UC because of savings or living with a partner who was still working. In reality, there were more holes than Swiss cheese in Rishi's scattergun approach to the covid support schemes.

Sam F doesn’t work for the DfE anymore, piggy, more’s the shame.

@noblegiraffe

Yes, what’s in the guidance is entirely the fault of the minister. And he’s responsible for how it’s written and when it’s published. See! Not so hard

Yes, I do see. I see that:

I’m immensely proud of my job and of being a civil servant and my work has a big impact

And yet when the accusation is that the work is terrible and the impact negative, it is entirely down to the minister.

Civil servants are very important and powerful until there’s any criticism, at which point they are mere vessels for the minister’s wishes.

I see exactly.

Who said civil servants were very powerful? That isn’t synonymous with having impact it would be a bad thing for civil servants to hold power over that held by elected officials. Again, this is obvious to people who understand democracy. It seems to have really annoyed you that no one’s keen to take you up on your instruction to ‘feel ashamed’ because you didn’t like some guidance you got on how to do your job. Maybe try not wanting such weird, unpleasant things for people who’ve done absolutely nothing to deserve them?

Who said civil servants were very powerful

You said your work has a big impact. Maybe you meant that your work has a tiny impact. Negligible.

because you didn’t like some guidance you got on how to do your job.

"didn't like"

You've not read the guidance then. There was very little information on how to actually do our jobs. Mostly ideas that were impossible to implement in actual schools.

Civil servants may not have "power", but they're the ones who foul up drafting the rules/laws/guidance etc. No one expects the responsible minister to check every word - they have to rely on their "experts" who advise them, i.e. the civil servants.

I work in tax. The amount of drafting errors in tax laws is crazy. The amount of erroneous "guidance" on the HMRC(Gov.uk) website is ridiculous. No one expects Rishi to proof-read the tax guidance on their website.

I knownoble. That's what I meant. Sick and left in disgust. We saw how people were treated there when all Sir Kevan's ideas were blocked.

Do people really think civil servants decide and implement policies by themselves? Perhaps we need better civics education in schools.

(Lesson 1 could be “Why Tabloid Headlines May Not Be Entirely Truthful If Ranting About Public Sector Workers…”)

@Hercisback

because you didn’t like some guidance you got on how to do your job.

"didn't like"

You've not read the guidance then. There was very little information on how to actually do our jobs. Mostly ideas that were impossible to implement in actual schools.

That wasn't just restricted to schools, though. I remember talking to all kinds of business owners who were really struggling to reconcile the official "guidance" for their industries against the law/rules generally, and against reality.

@noblegiraffe

Who said civil servants were very powerful

You said your work has a big impact. Maybe you meant that your work has a tiny impact. Negligible.

I repeat: those words aren’t synonymous. I’d have thought you would understand that, but clearly there’s a lot you struggle to understand.

[quote Badbadbunny]**@Lightisnotwhite* Bollocks. Tories subsidised everybody rich or poor through furlough, self employment and universal credit money.*

That's simply not true. There were 3 million self employed/freelancers who fell through the net and weren't eligible for the SEISS support nor furlough. Many were excluded from UC because of savings or living with a partner who was still working. In reality, there were more holes than Swiss cheese in Rishi's scattergun approach to the covid support schemes.[/quote]
A lot were “directors” avoiding tax by paying dividends. Perfectly legal but obviously doesn’t work in this scenario.
I think the consensus in the business community is the government paid quickly and generously actually.

Do people really think civil servants decide and implement policies by themselves?

Do people really think that government ministers write and implement policies all by themselves?

Yes I was aware of the IRA and their campaign, but I was referring more in relation to 9/11 when terrorist attacks took a different turn. I remember Lockerbie too, terrorism has always been a threat, but it feels different now.

Bollocks. Tories subsidised everybody rich or poor through furlough, self employment and universal credit money

Rubbish. If your partner was working you couldn't claim anything if you lost your job. If you were on a zero hour contract you were fucked. Many of those who were able to claim ended up in debt while they waited for their money to come through - a standard five weeks, although with the massive demand there was a huge backlog and for some people it took a lot longer.

Many, many people slipped through the net and were not able to access any financial support.

@Badbadbunny

Civil servants may not have "power", but they're the ones who foul up drafting the rules/laws/guidance etc. No one expects the responsible minister to check every word - they have to rely on their "experts" who advise them, i.e. the civil servants.

I work in tax. The amount of drafting errors in tax laws is crazy. The amount of erroneous "guidance" on the HMRC(Gov.uk) website is ridiculous. No one expects Rishi to proof-read the tax guidance on their website.

I can assure you I do expect the minister to read and be accountable for every word. I expect it as a policy official (and get it and then some with the current minister responsible for my policy area) and I expect it as a citizen. You might have lower expectations of them; all I can say on that is that I would urge you not to.

I repeat: those words aren’t synonymous

Yes, I get that you are proud of your work and how impactful it is but also you have no input into guidance or policy. So perhaps you are in charge of tea-making.

@noblegiraffe

Do people really think civil servants decide and implement policies by themselves?

Do people really think that government ministers write and implement policies all by themselves?

Ministers instruct, civil servants implement according to instructions. Really this is a pretty basic fundamental part of how UK government works.

And yes, guidance published for schools will have been drafted up according to the instructions of a minister, and will have been approved by that minister. So if your complaint is that there’s a typo in line 423 then fine, that’s with whoever wrote it, but if your complaint is with the policy it's setting out then that is a decision made by politicians.

How would you prefer this system to work? Do you think it would be better if civil servants all just did their own thing?