Those of us who were ‘cannon fodder’- how do you feel?

[Onandoff]

I went to a gathering the other day with people who were privileged enough to still be working from home in highly paid city jobs. Their experiences were a stark contrast with mine. It was interesting to hear how protected they’d been, many still getting shopping delivered and only just resuming socialising. They hadn’t been on public transport at all. There was a general air of resentment at being asked to go back to offices and commute. They’d all saved money and were very worried about covid exposure despite being vaccinated. Apparently many workers have completely refused to return.

DH and I were the only key workers there and it brought home how exposed we’d been. Literally all of our family and colleagues caught it and some died or were left disabled. My mum died. In the hospital where I work 80% caught it in the first wave alone.

It’s been interesting to see through this that the jobs essential to society are (generally, appreciate some exceptions like medics) the worst paid. If we’d refused to go in or been redeployed we’d have been sacked. While the privileged middle class are still being pandered to despite vaccination.

I feel that those who went out to work should be financially compensated for the risk we took. At the very least we should be given tax breaks and not be expected to cough up for furlough costs.

@namechange7865

Tories would smile with glee at the continued success of divide and rule if they saw this thread.

You're pointing fingers at the wrong people, look up.

Exactly @NC7865

[quote Capodimonte]@Bawse I actually completely agree with what you say there. What has been highlighted is how pointless having to go into the office can be for a lot of people, and how much more productive work can be from home, alongside a better work/life/financial balance permanent wfh can be.

I wfh on a permanent basis and did so for years before the lockdown. So nothing changed for me. My post was more showing the op that I could see where she was coming from, and that I kind of understood why she felt upset about the situation.[/quote]
Yeah I hear you @Capodimonte

I’m explaining why anger at what will be a very small team of civil servants for it is bizarre and misplaced

All you’ve explained is that the entire DfE could be replaced by a piece of dictation software. You’ve explained that they have literally no control over the guidance they write and have no way of making it coherent or fit-for-purpose.

I know civil servants who are able to have more of an impact on what their department produces than that, so it’s not really raising my opinion of them tbh.

All you’ve explained is that the entire DfE could be replaced by a piece of dictation software

When someone makes a decision to go into healthcare then they know that there is a risk of dealing with all sorts of possible scenarios.

As a PP has already stated a few pages back. Terrorist attacks you name it. I know all about shit times however you stating that extra money should be given to healthcare staff and paying less tax etc really doesn't make people feel sympathy towards what you're saying the same as some of your other posts.

You do sound very angry and bitter and that's understandable however I would also say that you could do some with some support as getting it all out can be good and very beneficial. Particularly with working in healthcare you need to be okay and not let bitterness get in the way.

I'm aware that what I've stated at the start of this could sound very blunt but it's correct. Nurses and doctors are aware that any event could potentially occur and their job is to work to help people.

So many people who have had to work from home or who were furloughed have not had the best time of it, either. Parents trying to help their children with schoolwork including ones with additional support needs as not all were even offered a place anywhere. While still trying to work.

People try to post the ideal things on social media and a lot of the so called happy people wouldn't have all actually felt that way. Plenty of people have lost their job. Paycuts.

@noblegiraffe

I’m explaining why anger at what will be a very small team of civil servants for it is bizarre and misplaced

All you’ve explained is that the entire DfE could be replaced by a piece of dictation software. You’ve explained that they have literally no control over the guidance they write and have no way of making it coherent or fit-for-purpose.

I know civil servants who are able to have more of an impact on what their department produces than that, so it’s not really raising my opinion of them tbh.

Erm, nope that’s not even remotely what I said, and I suspect you know that perfectly well but now feel backed into a weird corner of your own making. I’m a senior policy advisor and obviously I don’t feel that I “could be replaced by dictation software”. I’m immensely proud of my job and of being a civil servant and my work has a big impact on our stakeholders. That doesn’t change what the parameters of a civil servant’s role are or who’s accountable for the government of the day’s policies, as several people have now explained. I mean, no one can stop you from feeling or saying that it’s civil servants’ fault, but you will then get laughed at for not understanding how things work by people who do, and you’ll diminish your own stance when your own profession is subjected to similarly daft criticism.

We're 100% not middle class but DH has wfh throughout. He's a key worker - not all key workers have had to go out to work, and not all who have been wfh are in high paid work (DH earns about £27k pa, the team he manages start on £19k). They've all worked very long hours doing a very stressful job - it's benefits related and as you can imagine, it's been nuts, particularly in the first few weeks of LD1 when people were losing their livelihoods all over the place. He often started at 7am and still been at it at gone 8pm.

I've seen suggestions that people who have been wfh should be subject to higher taxes or salary cuts because they've saved money. Why? We've saved about £100pm in fares which has been a great help, but his colleagues who walked or cycled to work haven't saved a penny. And they've all worked harder in the past year and a half than they ever have. To penalise low paid key workers who have actually managed to save a few quid for once is a bonkers and a massive slap in the face.

@namechange7865

Tories would smile with glee at the continued success of divide and rule if they saw this thread.

You're pointing fingers at the wrong people, look up.

100% this.

I've worked throughout in a job requiring close contact with multiple members of the public. I have never once envied those stuck indoors and have been very grateful that I was in a position to continue to carry on as normal and interact with other human beings.

I also never viewed Covid as being particularly dangerous for me or my family so I've never viewed myself as 'cannon fodder'. I got paid for doing a job I love and makes a difference and I was as happy with that as I've always been.

@Lamentations

I've worked throughout in a job requiring close contact with multiple members of the public. I have never once envied those stuck indoors and have been very grateful that I was in a position to continue to carry on as normal and interact with other human beings.

I also never viewed Covid as being particularly dangerous for me or my family so I've never viewed myself as 'cannon fodder'. I got paid for doing a job I love and makes a difference and I was as happy with that as I've always been.

We’ll good for you Pollyanna

@Lynthus I work in the NHS. I was told by wages I would go onto half pay end of August. So yes every trust is different. Thanks for the sympathy though.

We’ll good for you Pollyanna

Well that was unnecessary.

noblegiraffe

All you’ve explained is that the entire DfE could be replaced by a piece of dictation software. You’ve explained that they have literally no control over the guidance they write and have no way of making it coherent or fit-for-purpose.

This about sums it up

I feel really quite angry, about the lack of appreciation and expectations put on us (I’m a teacher) tbh, not to mention the downright vitriol from elements of society and the press. I’m sick to the back teeth of being a political football, and of those who think we should not complain about the risk to our health, and our students’ health, because teaching is a “vocation”. Extra work has just been heaped on us, much of which is not at all within our areas of expertise and most definitely not part of the job description, for no extra pay at all. The government have deemed it appropriate to reward us with a pay freeze, who knows how long before we can an actual raise, even in line with inflation would be better than nothing. I’m probably most cross about the Teacher Assessed Grades fiasco (which I concede is a bit off topic, but it exemplifies the fundamental unfairness of it all). I don’t know how much extra work this was, but it was days and days, all squeezed in during evenings and weekends, not to mention the stress and pressure of actually awarding fair grades so everything was triple checked. But for some unfathomable reason, not only was all this extra work unpaid, but schools actually had to pay the exam boards for the privilege of doing their job for them for free. Whilst exam board employees did what exactly? Sat around at home scratching their arses and occasionally sending an email with “guidance” that wasn’t actually helpful, or a dodgy cut and paste job of old exam questions, in the hope that they would fool some exhausted teachers into believing they had actually written some new exam material. I don’t feel in any way bitter to all those well paid professional who have wfh throughout, unless you’re in charge of an exam board, or Ofqual, or the Department of Education, in which case you can F off, and I hope you feel really guilty. I don’t expect ANYTHING from the current excuse for a government, not simple safety measures or any mitigations to all really, I know that’s too much to ask because back bench MPs will have a tantrum if teenagers are forced to wear masks. But I’d be really really stoked if all those wfh professionals in well paid jobs could all show their appreciation by just not voting Tory.

I don't think those of us who worked in offices during lockdown should be given financial compensation but I do think anyone point blank refusing to return to work should be sacked.

@FrippEnos

noblegiraffe

All you’ve explained is that the entire DfE could be replaced by a piece of dictation software. You’ve explained that they have literally no control over the guidance they write and have no way of making it coherent or fit-for-purpose.

This about sums it up

I mean, it still doesn’t, and all you and the other one have demonstrated is that you don’t understand how governments work. Despite having it explained to you, a number of times now. Let’s hope you’re better on the subjects you’re charged with teaching children about.

Being resentful of others isn't going to help your situation and certainly won't get you any more money. I don't think there is any appetite to reward any front line workers when large industries like travel and theatre are still teetering on a cliff edge. I also find that good managers can help people feel appreciated even if there is no extra money on hand.

OP if you are that disgruntled maybe think about leaving and going into a different profession. I say this as someone who moved from the NHS into an entirely different field and have not looked back although I did retrain and started again at the bottom.

MiddleParking

And yet that is what you have said.

Let’s hope you’re better on the subjects you’re charged with teaching children about.

Oh no, an insult from a random on the net, what a surprise.

I’m a senior policy advisor and obviously I don’t feel that I “could be replaced by dictation software”. I’m immensely proud of my job and of being a civil servant and my work has a big impact

And yet at the DfE, the garbled, shitty nonsense they’ve been churning out is entirely the fault of the minister and nothing they could have done or said would have changed that, per your accusation that I’m directing my anger at the wrong person. Maybe they don’t have any policy advisors?

Or perhaps, and the latest contingency framework is a good example of terrible writing, rushed out, they actually bear some of the responsibility for it being so bad.

Don’t worry about whether I’m letting Gav off the hook, I could produce several threads to counter that.

@FrippEnos

MiddleParking

And yet that is what you have said.

Let’s hope you’re better on the subjects you’re charged with teaching children about.

Oh no, an insult from a random on the net, what a surprise.

No, it isn’t what I’ve said. If you’re not capable of understanding what I have said, or you are but have decided not to, that’s on you.

Many places offered a WFH solution as a temporary measure, and I think a lot of people have forgotten this.

To an extent yes, but the temporary measure was only expected to last around 12 weeks in the initial stages. The ground gained from this was shown to be quickly lost by September and the WFH and School FH requirements were implemented at least twice more, presumably because anything that would help lower transmission was unavoidable by then.

Office systems definitely went through a fast track of adaptation. A lot of this bedded in to work better than expected - going to the office was no longer the 'essential' journey (that we were told to minimize) and the remote technology took the stage. The unpalatable side of it was the 'living at work' feel, and never being allowed to be unavailable, grabbing fresh air time, having to see screens as childminding methods, working when kids were asleep or house members home and at unsociable hours, for weeks, if you were lucky.

The return to 'the office' is now quite likely not to be back to the old normal at all. Maximum room capacities, for example, are much lower so a team of 8 might now have 3 desk spaces allowed a day, based on ventilation and distancing. At least half of work group will probably be remote (and isolated) for the foreseeable future because they would exceed guidelines deemed "safe". A large venue I know of have to apply different rules to their hire policies depending on who is trying to hire? Is it a wedding? A dance group? A (formerly weekly) special needs class? A therapy group? All of these now come under different rules for numbers and insurance and some have no predictable way to resume at all, still. For those who got used to WFH, the goalposts are changing again, and it doesn't seem efficient, lasting, or logical yet.

@toystoyseverywhere

When someone makes a decision to go into healthcare then they know that there is a risk of dealing with all sorts of possible scenarios.

As a PP has already stated a few pages back. Terrorist attacks you name it. I know all about shit times however you stating that extra money should be given to healthcare staff and paying less tax etc really doesn't make people feel sympathy towards what you're saying the same as some of your other posts.

You do sound very angry and bitter and that's understandable however I would also say that you could do some with some support as getting it all out can be good and very beneficial. Particularly with working in healthcare you need to be okay and not let bitterness get in the way.

I'm aware that what I've stated at the start of this could sound very blunt but it's correct. Nurses and doctors are aware that any event could potentially occur and their job is to work to help people.

Well to be fair 25 years ago when I decided to train within the healthcare sector terrorist attacks and pandemics were not exactly something I considered. I was trained and working by the time 9/11 happened for example.

I no longer work in a healthcare setting, (same profession, different setting) but I never imagined I would have to deal with the things I have in the past year or so.

MiddleParking

Oh dear, you are getting pissy aren't you.

You have said that civic servants don't set policies
That they have no say in policy content
That they have no say in when they get published
And no responsibility for what is being published.
All from your posts

So yes from your posts noblegiraffe is correct

the entire DfE could be replaced by a piece of dictation software.

@noblegiraffe

I’m a senior policy advisor and obviously I don’t feel that I “could be replaced by dictation software”. I’m immensely proud of my job and of being a civil servant and my work has a big impact

And yet at the DfE, the garbled, shitty nonsense they’ve been churning out is entirely the fault of the minister and nothing they could have done or said would have changed that, per your accusation that I’m directing my anger at the wrong person. Maybe they don’t have any policy advisors?

Or perhaps, and the latest contingency framework is a good example of terrible writing, rushed out, they actually bear some of the responsibility for it being so bad.

Don’t worry about whether I’m letting Gav off the hook, I could produce several threads to counter that.

Yes, what’s in the guidance is entirely the fault of the minister. And he’s responsible for how it’s written and when it’s published. See! Not so hard. If a civil servant you know has told you that they’re able to override the minister’s position or drafting edits, then they’re delusional and you’re more credulous than you ought to be.

I wasn’t “worried that you were letting ‘Gav’ off the hook” (although it is quite funny that you think you having posted a big load of mumsnet threads would counter that accusation if I had made it), you’ll recall that I was laughing at people (including you) thinking that DfE’s flexible working policy had some kind of bearing on the credibility of the guidance about having classroom windows open or shut, and that the civil servants who wrote it should ‘feel ashamed’ for writing it while they may (or may not) have been working at home themselves. Because, you know, that’s a laughable idea.