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NZ back into lockdown.

714 replies

Malin52 · 17/08/2021 09:00

1 case in the community. All of NZ back into lockdown Level 4 because no link to border found.

Hard and fast.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 19/08/2021 09:02

[quote shiningcuckoo]@FourTeaFallOut Colonisation is very much a construct that goes beyond a historical phenomena. The effects of colonisation are felt in NZ and Oz today and the pain for indigenous people is real. Colonial attitudes are still alive and kicking and are harmful in a contemporary sense because they, for example, restrict Maori access to health and result in inequitable educational outcomes. The way that Nz has been dismissed for its approach to COVID by UK based media and posters on this type of forum is an example of how colonialism exists on a world stage. Even now,after all these years, there is a Eurocentric superiority around how to do things and an assumption that the colonials will fail. Before anyone jumps down my neck, I have dual NZ/UK citizenship as do my children and I love the UK. But I do not love some of the attitudes towards others. [/quote]
Right. This colonial bullshit is taking away from an international discussion that we should all be having. The lack of international discussion over covid is one of the biggest problems we've had in the last two years. The nationalism that has been actively encouraged on this has been a force that has damaged pretty much every country in the world, in different ways. Why? Because of this notion of pride thats crept in and this notion of exceptionalism thats crept in resulting from pride because we've done x, y or z right (depending on where you are from). Yet this notion of pride prevents us from properly acknowledging weakness or risk. Thats true of both the uk and nz.

Criticism or concern is not necessarily a colonist attack. Framing it as such, is to sometimes be utterly lazy in understanding others because its an easy go to defensive position.

NZ has effectively put themselves on a world pedestal because of how well they have performed so far. That in its own right will attract comment - both good and bad - from around the world. Its most likely to draw attention from the uk because of ties but NZ is also more likely to notice it from the uk because of shared language. It is less likely to come from the US because quite frankly so many Americans aren't interested beyond its borders because of their own nationalistic inward looking attitudes. And on MN of course you are going to get a whole bunch of brits commenting because its a British based website than NZers are posting on.

There is also a mix of brits here, using NZ as an example to bash the british government which they hate and using NZs success to criticise, forgetting the unique situation and geography that nz has which made the dynamics and considerations of the pandemic completely different. And they still don't fully acknowledge the advantages NZ has always had over the uk on this.

What we are seeing play out is how there has been such a delay between the first case being detected and there being a lockdown. This is with mass testing, surveillance and quarantine in place. It just highlights the issue that the uk had, and even if we had locked down hard and fast sooner, we still would have had mass problems and its highly likely we could never have pursued a zero covid strategy because we didn't have the ability to detect cases, never mind track them for some considerable time.

That in itself always is a problem for any nation pursuing a zero covid strategy. Its right to protect its own citizens on the surface from the information given at the time. But there was always the spectre of how waves could differ which isn't much talked about which could have (and still could be problematic) with that strategy.

We know that the first wave of the Spanish flu pandemic wasn't as deadly as the second. It was the second wave that was devastating. Those who caught it first time had a higher chance of survival and this may have given them protection from a more deadly second wave. Indeed it may have saved my own great grandfather's life in multiple ways.

The danger in shutting up shop was, yes you protected some of your most vulnerable early on, but that decision also may not mean you get natural protection in the community should a subsequent wave leak in before your vaccination programme is complete. And this is theory could lead to more people being at risk that in earlier waves if subsequent waves were more deadly.

That for me is why I see NZ (and Australia) currently in a particularly vulnerable position if they don't manage to get on top of things quickly. It has the potential to play out really badly if errors have been made and there has been a lack of learning from the experiences elsewhere. A zero covid strategy and a more deadly subsequent wave before completed vaccinations is a dangerous mix. It means there is less room to make mistakes at this point because of the risk of catastrophic failure. A zero covid strategy tries to separate from the world but it is impossible to full remove yourself from issues that happen elsewhere in the world and the problems others have. There is an inevitability that global events will eventually have impact on you.

Its also a strategy which is harder to exit because there is an inevitability of an exit wave - and the UK is demonstrating well even with our situation and a population used to cases and somewhat more hardened psychologically, that its not easy to sell to the population and its hard for many used to the relative safety blanket (both psychical and psychological) of restrictions to make that adjustment.

The confidence of the NZ authorities that they can keep things under control is the same as has happened early on everywhere else. Its about keeping the population calm and preventing panic as much as being genuinely confident. And reading between the lines of what NZ experts are saying, there is a level of concern very much present in relation to the number of cases and how long its taken to detect the first. It only takes missing one or two in just the wrong place before the problem can spiral. NZ has to have a certain amount of luck as well as good management at this point too.

For the record, ive deliberately used New Zealand media sources and read New Zealand information on this rather than looking at British media precisely because there are some who want NZ to fail.

But tarring everyone with the same brush and refusing to acknowledge how NZs success puts them in a certain position which both invites comment and concern (genuine concern) is equally unhelpful. Its a failure of understanding and trying to bridge divides in its own right. It carries the risk of sticking fingers in ears and risking not heeding well meaning warnings if you write them off as 'paternalistic' or 'patronising'. Maybe just maybe its simply giving a shit about people you care about. And hoping that others can demonstrate that better preparation, management and planning can actually work. (The alternative is that it justifies at least some degree the sentiment that we are powerless against nature and negates the investment in infrastructure and planning going forward - so its important for elsewhere)

As it goes the latest news seems to be a lot more positive than it was just 12 hours ago.

NZ is important on a global scale. It made itself important. So now it has to take up that responsibility and attention that comes with it. That includes comments about it.

MarshaBradyo · 19/08/2021 09:02

People are incredibly chippy Confused

You’d think they’d avoid mn with mostly U.K. posters if it set them off this much.

MarshaBradyo · 19/08/2021 09:03

@LimeRedBanana

I am indeed easily amused.

‘You have to carefully think’ is a bit of a corker.

Not really.

It’s just a phrase.

RedToothBrush · 19/08/2021 09:08

@MapleMay11

There comes a moment in every online debate when you have to make a decision - do I have the emotional energy to correct another poster's extreme and offensive ignorance?

But to assume all posters in the UK are white, British and have no knowledge of Māori and Pasifika is comparable extreme and offensive ignorance.

And to assume that they also dont care is also offensive.

The whole point is sweeping generalisations and tarring people with the same brush is nonsense.

There are a range of views, opinions and interests from the uk. Just as there are within nz too. Which you can read all about in the NZ press. (including what looks to be growing criticism and dissent - and knowing what lockdowns do, that is likely only to grow - remembering that vulnerable communities to covid throughout the world are also the most vulnerable within a lockdown too.)

RedToothBrush · 19/08/2021 09:09

@LimeRedBanana

And yes, indeed, China - certainly a model for us to consider!
Thats China currently having more extreme lockdowns due to new covid outbreaks.
sashagabadon · 19/08/2021 09:11

Apologies for thread derail. It’s topic I find interesting that’s all. Anyway back to coronavirus Grin

DottyHarmer · 19/08/2021 09:12

@RedToothBrush - what a fantastic post. I hope everyone reads it. This silly notion of “winning” is indeed harmful. It’s not the Covid Olympics, fgs.

LimeRedBanana · 19/08/2021 09:13

Oh dear - I was clearly being sarcastic.

China was a model actually being suggested for us NZers to consider, if/when we ditch Queenie.

MarshaBradyo · 19/08/2021 09:15

Do people lack the ability to chat on a forum?

Sasha was just running through all the options.

Pretty clear

LimeRedBanana · 19/08/2021 09:16

No need to take it all quite so personally, Marsha.

Talk about people being chippy…

sashagabadon · 19/08/2021 09:16

Great post Red. I also see parallels with climate change where the tables are turned a bit and we here in the U.K. don’t really think we’ll be affected and live in a bit of a bubble. Climate change happens in other countries not here. But we’ll be affected too, we’re in a bit of denial ( not everyone of course)

MarshaBradyo · 19/08/2021 09:17

@LimeRedBanana

No need to take it all quite so personally, Marsha.

Talk about people being chippy…

Not taking it personally.

I don’t know why you are crying with laughter or whatever but it’s unnecessary .

It’s just chat and I found it interesting.

RedToothBrush · 19/08/2021 09:18

@LimeRedBanana

Oh dear - I was clearly being sarcastic.

China was a model actually being suggested for us NZers to consider, if/when we ditch Queenie.

My point was that no one is going to get things 100 % right. Everyone is having problems. Due to the very nature of Delta.

And thats partly why NZ is going to invite interest too.

RedToothBrush · 19/08/2021 09:20

@sashagabadon

Great post Red. I also see parallels with climate change where the tables are turned a bit and we here in the U.K. don’t really think we’ll be affected and live in a bit of a bubble. Climate change happens in other countries not here. But we’ll be affected too, we’re in a bit of denial ( not everyone of course)
Oh gosh yes.

People change suddenly when things start to affect them directly. They don't take them seriously until directly confronted.

LimeRedBanana · 19/08/2021 09:21

I don’t know why you are crying with laughter or whatever but it’s unnecessary

Me finding things amusing on a random MN thread is ‘unnecessary’…?

Er, OK…. Confused

sashagabadon · 19/08/2021 09:21

@LimeRedBanana

Oh dear - I was clearly being sarcastic.

China was a model actually being suggested for us NZers to consider, if/when we ditch Queenie.

Just want to correct. I was absolutely not suggesting China as a model of governance. I’d never ever suggest that to anyone! It’s just one model of governance in the world. Amongst many many others.
Bryonyshcmyony · 19/08/2021 09:24

Wow that's a good post @redtoothbrush

Reminds me of why I stay on this site

MarshaBradyo · 19/08/2021 09:26

@LimeRedBanana

I don’t know why you are crying with laughter or whatever but it’s unnecessary

Me finding things amusing on a random MN thread is ‘unnecessary’…?

Er, OK…. Confused

Obviously you can grin all day long if you want. I don’t see point but crack on.
LimeRedBanana · 19/08/2021 09:26

Thanks for your permission…

MarshaBradyo · 19/08/2021 09:27

It’s just one model of governance in the world. Amongst many many others.

It was clear if you’re not looking for reasons to make jibes don’t worry.

LimeRedBanana · 19/08/2021 09:28

@sashagabadon

You could look towards Asia for structure system but Asia also has monarchs with a lot more power than our Queen has. What about China? But that’s a directorship really. Maybe Japan? It’s very interesting and not an easy decision, You need an alternative system of governance to sell to the people as they have to live under it!
.
MarshaBradyo · 19/08/2021 09:29

@LimeRedBanana

Thanks for your permission…
No problem.
sashagabadon · 19/08/2021 09:36

Maybe I should have said “recommend” rather than “suggest”
China has had a similar structure for what 2000 years maybe longer so it clearly works very well for them.
Anyway apologies derail again.

sashagabadon · 19/08/2021 10:00

wouldn’t “recommend”

fiveminustwocats · 19/08/2021 10:13

Thank goodness for Mumsnetters here to point stuff out for us.

Indeed, how on earth would we manage without them Wink Interesting that they know so much about our parliament and politicians too. I don't think many in the UK actually know very much about NZ at all, given some of the rubbish I've read on MN.

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