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NZ back into lockdown.

714 replies

Malin52 · 17/08/2021 09:00

1 case in the community. All of NZ back into lockdown Level 4 because no link to border found.

Hard and fast.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 18/08/2021 14:46

@TheKeatingFive

It’s a shame doing it better has come to mean this ‘we locked down better’ stuff

Exactly. This seems to be the left wing take on it, which I find bizarre.

Vaccine development was an enormous step forward. Elimination strategies would only ever be effective long term if the entire world was successful in implementing them. Given how unlikely that was, vaccines were the only viable way out.

I find it strange that a certain cohort absolutely refuse to acknowledge the importance of the work that was done in the U.K. and other countries at the forefront of creating and testing the vaccines.

Yep to all this

It’s those people who applaud NZ etc and can’t say a single positive thing about U.K. developments

When really geography is a huge part of former and expertise the latter

But it’s another stick to bash everyone with. We get it no positive things to say.

Look at life now compared with consequences of delta spread if no vaccine. Without it everywhere is in huge trouble. Maybe NZ would last for a while but I doubt the next stage with home isolation would keep it out enough to beat with lockdown.

MapleMay11 · 18/08/2021 14:57

You guys were a shambles. Who on earth do you think you are to criticise any one? Literally no one is looking to the uk for guidance and following your shining light.

The UK, US, Israel and the Netherland provided some of the most valuable early evidence for NZ to use for its long-term modelling. If, as you say, Jacinda Ardern is refusing to take anything from their experiences then I'm literally dumbfounded. Her current strategy does seem to suggest that though.

sashagabadon · 18/08/2021 14:59

i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126098610/covid19-nz-how-viable-is-new-zealands-coronavirus-elimination-plan-in-the-time-of-delta

Interesting article here in NZ press. First one I’ve seen in openly questioning the narrative.

MarshaBradyo · 18/08/2021 15:00

@MapleMay11

You guys were a shambles. Who on earth do you think you are to criticise any one? Literally no one is looking to the uk for guidance and following your shining light.

The UK, US, Israel and the Netherland provided some of the most valuable early evidence for NZ to use for its long-term modelling. If, as you say, Jacinda Ardern is refusing to take anything from their experiences then I'm literally dumbfounded. Her current strategy does seem to suggest that though.

Some people are very self assured and shut off to anything outside.

Wonder if they would say no to treatments and vaccines though - US was a ‘shambles’ too so no Pfizer either.

RoseWineTime · 18/08/2021 15:07

I’m in the U.K. and proud to be involved in a major vaccine trial.
With regard to lockdown - I’m not sure it works nearly as well now with the delta variant - hope I’m proved wrong though.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2021 15:14

@samsalmon

Well, the one thing that is clear is that here in the UK we are just further along the process. We’ve been through lots of the psychological and systemic stages of this thing. Currently we are at a place where both vaccines and community spread are jointly building up our immunity - we have come to tolerate a certain level of cases and deaths. Our health system is strained but coping (winter may change that…). I work in a hospital so see it from the inside, the levels of Covid and how they impact non-Covid operations.

I think what fascinates some of us is watching you in NZ at what appears to be the beginning of this process, particularly psychologically. We have been through lockdown fatigue, lord knows the last lockdown at the beginning of this year was HARD. We’ve been through those stages of fear of Covid, anger (at our government and sometimes at those around us who we felt weren’t being responsible enough), the recriminations, the acceptance of a certain level of hospitalisation and death rates.

You can see from what’s happening here that Delta will spread, even with high vaccine take-up. So that means you in NZ will have to go through those some of the same psychological stages. What is being done to prepare the population for the reality of that? And how sure are you that your health system will cope when Covid comes? These are genuine questions.

Finally, tbh for me Australia and NZ are a bit of a side show. The big question is, how will China cope long term with this? Their current strategy also seems unsustainable. That’s another thread though 🙂

PS totally agree with PPs who say we have put in our time here in the UK and ‘leant in’, as it were. Anyone who doesn’t believe that is being rude, frankly.

I think this is definitely something i feel.

We've had a shit time, but for the most part i think the fear part and feeling like its going to go on forever, does feel behind us.

Whether thats true we don't actually know. It could go horribly wrong still.

When i look at NZ im holding my breathe hoping that things don't suddenly go pear shaped. I wouldnt want to repeat the early part of this year. Nor do i want people i care about to go through those feelings in NZ. Especially when they could have learnt from the cock ups here. In some ways failing to learn from our mistakes is all the more unforgivable given the time available to prepare.

I don't feel pride in the vaccine programme. I feel relieved and grateful. And just thankful that we got that bit right when we could have screwed the pouch on that too.

Looking at what has been happening in Australia and China with both unable to keep Delta under control has been sobering. China hasn't been well reported here for the obvious reason to do with the Chinese State, but the fact that even China with all its compulsory and draconian monitoring hasn't been able to stop Delta is incredibly sobering. It has felt for a while that NZ might be on borrowed time for that reason.

I think in that sense, seeing an outbreak in NZ potentially starting is quite a sobering thought. Its one i hope doesn't happen.

I think psychologically that also has resonance outside NZ borders for that reason too. It brings a sense of helplessness back - one that weve started to feel in the uk that we are shaking off.

It does start to make you feel as if the optimism here, is also premature (personally ive always thought that the uk is going to have issues going into winter but im also paradoxically more optimistic about things than a lot of people about being at the back end of things) and it starts to tug away at you and brings this creeping sense of doubt back too.

If things go badly in NZ i think it will impact on people here for that reason. It is likely to create a greater amount of pessimism in the coming months, especially if things do take a turn for the worst.

We are emotionally invested here in various ways, precisely because NZ has done things well. It manifests in a few different ways. I think there are those who quite maliciously have the attitude of wanting to wipe the smugness of Ardens face but equally i also think there are those who want NZ to demonstrate good governance can work. And for whom an outbreak in Nz would be heart breaking and shatter the general mood of growing optimism here.

At this point in the pandemic thats why im glad im in the uk not NZ, having lived through it here. And i only have that sense precisely because we've weathered that and not wishing to deal with prospect of another lockdown.

If i was in NZ i would have a completely different mindset because ive watched the uk and haven't lived through the same experience.

I think in the uk having had the lockdown for so long, some of us feel genuine sympathy and worry for anyone going into it for that reason.

We've had such different experiences... It shows.

Cornettoninja · 18/08/2021 15:15

I don’t know if anyone has actually tried locking down in response to delta to be able to confidently say one way or another. I believe India had areas that did but it wasn’t uniform across the country. I believe the speed of transmission is behind the idea that locking down is largely futile.

NZ are in a good place to test it though. Their T&T isn’t overwhelmed and their infection numbers are very low, so if anyone is going to be able to demonstrate the efficacy of locking down against delta it will be NZ right now. Of course they may not be able to but their certainly in a good enough position to try, their cases haven’t hit treble figures.

MarshaBradyo · 18/08/2021 15:17

I don’t know if anyone has actually tried locking down in response to delta to be able to confidently say one way or another.

What about Sydney and Melbourne?

shiningcuckoo · 18/08/2021 15:18

@pinktonic why would you not believe I've been vaccinated? What an odd thing to dispute. It's like me questioning you actually having family in NZ or Jared you just stating that to back up your view? If you'd read my answer properly you might have spotted that I've been really ill. Getting vaccinated was a sensible move before I started my treatment. And I'm not very very lucky. Everyone I know over 50 who wants it has been vaccinated and lots of people over 40 too. As for vaccinating the Pacific, an example is the vaccines flown from Auckland to the main Cook Islands and the NZ Navy delivery of vaccines again out of Auckland to the northern Cook Islands and Tokelau. Niue also achieved 100% vaccination of its target population group, again with vaccines from NZ. Sorry if I came across as in some way supercilious - just wanted to point out that NZ has not been sitting on its arse twiddling its thumbs through this.
To me this whole debate has a strong colonial vibe, where 'Mother England' and some of her inhabitants are fast to criticize snd undermine the strategies and actions of a former colony on the basis that we can't possibly know what we're doing or be trying a different yet valid strategy. When the Uk was on its knees bashing pots and pans and becoming accustomed to a multitude of people dying everyday, no one here was smug or waiting for the UK to fail. Rather hoping and praying that things would improve soon. Especially those of us who have UK family and friends. A

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2021 15:19

The NZ modelling apparently is suggesting they are expecting 120 possible cases now.

That's not happened before.

We don't really know how good NZs t&t is for that reason. I hope to god its actually worldbeating...

Dancingonmoonlight · 18/08/2021 15:20

I think what fascinates some of us is watching you in NZ at what appears to be the beginning of this process, particularly psychologically

Jesus. Could you be more anymore patronising.

The UK has nothing to be smug about. It wasn’t so long since BoJo was going around shaking hands in the midst of a pandemic.

PicsInRed · 18/08/2021 15:26

@RedToothBrush

The NZ modelling apparently is suggesting they are expecting 120 possible cases now.

That's not happened before.

We don't really know how good NZs t&t is for that reason. I hope to god its actually worldbeating...

And that was modelling performed before the timeline was pushed back to August 3rd. Presumably worse for quiet spread over 2 weeks.
TheKeatingFive · 18/08/2021 15:29

It’s an interesting point about delta. I agree NZ will be a good test.

I’m in ROI and our delta wave hit at a point where we had no indoor hospitality open and no indoor mixing. Delta still surged.

Obviously NZ is locking down harder than that, but it clearly takes a lot.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2021 15:35

@Dancingonmoonlight

I think what fascinates some of us is watching you in NZ at what appears to be the beginning of this process, particularly psychologically

Jesus. Could you be more anymore patronising.

The UK has nothing to be smug about. It wasn’t so long since BoJo was going around shaking hands in the midst of a pandemic.

Why do you think it patronising?

That says something of insecurity.

I think its more morbid fascination tbh. (which isn't always terribly healthy in its own right).

People watched things unfold in China and Italy with the same sort of curiosity and intreptidation previously. Then it hit the UK. Then we watched it unfolding in its horror in India. Now attention is focusing on Australia and NZ.

How will people cope? What will happen? Will they get it right unlike others before? Etc etc.

Its not necessarily an attack or colonial attitude. Indeed i find the automatic assumption that it is, interesting in its own right in terms of psychology!

Dancingonmoonlight · 18/08/2021 15:36

That says something of insecurity

Jesus. I’m not in NZ. Will you stop with the pop psychology. You are coming across really really badly.

GoldenOmber · 18/08/2021 15:40

Not remotely well-informed enough to ha r any big views about NZ’s strategy, but hoping for all of you over there that this outbreak gets under control soon. Delta is horrendously infectious. Fingers crossed they caught this quickly enough.

samsalmon · 18/08/2021 15:40

@Dancingonmoonlight

I think what fascinates some of us is watching you in NZ at what appears to be the beginning of this process, particularly psychologically

Jesus. Could you be more anymore patronising.

The UK has nothing to be smug about. It wasn’t so long since BoJo was going around shaking hands in the midst of a pandemic.

Sorry, my post wasn’t intended like that at all. I don’t mean for a second that anyone should be looking at us as an example. We’ve had an awful time of it and wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

I was trying to observe that you’re in a different place and there will be a process to go through. I personally don’t believe it’s possible to eliminate Covid, my understanding is that coronaviruses become endemic, and we’ve been hearing that message here for a while. In other words, we’ll all have to live with it at some point. If that is true, NZ will have to eventually let it in and manage it. There will be difficulties around that, no question.

I think Jacinda Ardern has gone from doing a great job of keeping the virus out to buy time, to now making promises that I don’t think she can keep. Trust me, we’ve been there with that, so no intention at all to patronise, just interested to see how it progresses from here.

RedToothBrush · 18/08/2021 15:40

@Dancingonmoonlight

That says something of insecurity

Jesus. I’m not in NZ. Will you stop with the pop psychology. You are coming across really really badly.

I don't give a fuck if you think im coming across badly.

I am allowed my own opinion. And to find things fascinating in my own way. Even if you don't agree with or like it.

Cornettoninja · 18/08/2021 15:43

@MarshaBradyo

I don’t know if anyone has actually tried locking down in response to delta to be able to confidently say one way or another.

What about Sydney and Melbourne?

I genuinely don’t know enough about how long or tight their lockdowns have been, I do know from our own lockdowns that it can take a while (weeks/months) to see a sustained reduction in case numbers, particularly once hospitals become largely infected because there are always gaps for the virus to breed. Their starting point of infection in the community will make a difference to how long their lockdowns should be from a containment pov. Whether that’s viable or not is another debate.

I don’t think NZ’s current lockdown (I think it was quoted earlier in days not weeks) is long enough to gain control of delta even though it’s worked previously.

@RedToothBrush
The NZ modelling apparently is suggesting they are expecting 120 possible cases now

That's not happened before

No, but it’s not entirely unexpected with delta. I also think it makes a difference whether those cases have been found through extensive testing or whether it’s testing prompted by symptomatic people. We’ve never really gone looking for cases comprehensively bar LFT’s which are far from perfect.

Mass testing in China, on the face of it, appears to have worked really well.

We don't really know how good NZs t&t is for that reason. I hope to god its actually worldbeating...

It certainly has the chance to be. Our T&T never really stood a chance due to the numbers of cases. Retrospectively (and I’m sure an unpopular opinion) it may have been better to cast T&T’s net wider last summer and extend the remit for contacts. That would have fallen apart come autumn and the inadequate testing capabilities though.

MarshaBradyo · 18/08/2021 15:47

Cornetto pretty full on lockdown at very low cases in Melbourne - maybe 7 can’t recall

Sydney was a bit later but not very high - it’s still increasing

Melbourne will be a test and NZ too a long same lines

Dancingonmoonlight · 18/08/2021 15:48

Indeed i find the automatic assumption that it is, interesting in its own right in terms of psychology!

The above highlights your intention to patronise. I’m not in NZ/Australia nor am I from there. Your need to smugly tell them how ‘fascinating’ you find their plight is awful.

Have some compassion and/or show some support by all means. But that’s not your nature obviously.

sashagabadon · 18/08/2021 15:48

every country watches every other. It's not personal. We've watched China, Italy, Ireland, US, India etc Poor old Sweden was watched and commented on by the whole world at one point. UK gets this too - see "freedom day" negative world commentary - from NZ and Australia media too just as much as anywhere else.
We're all obviously more interested here on Mumsnet than other boards as it is the Coronavirus board afterall so it probably feels more intense - but I also have friends that have paid little to no attention to covid happenings in the world for months!

sashagabadon · 18/08/2021 15:49

I occasionally have a look at Covid Twitter but quickly back out again - now that is toxic!

shiningcuckoo · 18/08/2021 15:49

I don't think it's possible to watch how things are unfolding in NZ and Oz and come to any real conclusions from the other side of the world. You only have the media to inform you and from what I've seen the UK media is wildly inaccurate about the situation in NZ. Even if you have family here, views are so polarized and based on political leanings, you're unlikely to learn anything enlightening other than what Auntie Mabel thinks of Jacinda and Judith.

Dancingonmoonlight · 18/08/2021 15:51

I think it would be more beneficial for posters on this thread to look at Israel so we can see what’s in front of us.

Hopefully NZ and Aust. are learning from all our mistakes.

IMO cases numbers are not important. The no. of deaths is the key issue.