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Australia in a mess - NZ with a plan

999 replies

StartupRepair · 13/08/2021 03:20

More than half of Australia is in lockdown now, sparked (imo) by the intransigence of the NSW Premier who ignored all warnings about Delta. Our procurement of and messaging around vaccines has been dangerously incompetent.
It all feels a bit bleak today. At least NZ seems to have a plan.

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Ozgirl75 · 22/08/2021 23:08

Well it will be interesting this week. Gladys has been saying for a while that we will get more “freedoms” once the state hits 6m vaccinations, which they’ll do tomorrow or Wednesday I think. Will she stick to her part and give us some crumbs even though the cases have gone up?
If she doesn’t, I fear a drop in vaccine take up as people won’t trust her to stick to what she says. Equally, freedoms will be hard for her with the cases now heading towards out of control level.
I can’t see it being any retail/hospitality opening. Hairdressers? Nice, but not really enough. Schools? We need a decision on when schools will go back, especially primary schools where no vaccination is planned.

Ozgirl75 · 22/08/2021 23:11

Schools should be moderately easy as they have the examples of the rest of the world. Weekly tests? Year group bubbles? Staggered days. Should be even easier now we know we don’t need to do the deep cleaning every day.

MercyBooth · 22/08/2021 23:11

@BunsyGirl I expect a lot of history is going to be rewritten over the coming years. Thats why i took that vid of the blocked stairs in Tesco.
The gaslighting will come.

MercyBooth · 22/08/2021 23:19

@Ozgirl75 We had the "15 million jabs to freedom headlines" back in February.

StartupRepair · 23/08/2021 00:48

The demo in Melbourne was the most violent the police had seen in 20 years. Mainly young men, many known far right sympathisers, anti vaxxers. They threw flares at police and horses. They blocked the city so people could not access food banks.

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AllHailTheGreatGoddess · 23/08/2021 01:00

StartupRepair what did you think was going to happen?

What do you think is happening right now online, in the bedrooms of these young men? Do you think every (disproportionate and unnecessary) screw tightening is being leveraged by extremists (of all flavours) as proof that 'they' are against you?

Or is the radicalisation of our youth, yet another price we simply have to pay?

Think BIGGER.

StartupRepair · 23/08/2021 01:12

Thank you I do think bigger. I don't think the people demonstrating were noble Tiananmen square heroes.

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Toesies · 23/08/2021 01:12

[quote MercyBooth]BASTARDS!!!!!!! Angry Angry Sad Sad

www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/rescue-dogs-shot-dead-by-nsw-council-due-to-covid-19-restrictions-20210821-p58ksh.html[/quote]

Mercy, this is more complex than it would appear with a quick read (if, indeed, you read beyond the headline). The area this occurred has an indigenous population. Staff would have had to travel to pick up the animals, potentially exposing this population, who are extremely vulnerable to COVID. Vaccination rates in the indigenous population are picking up, but should COVID arrive in that community, it would be devastating. I think the pound's decision should be looked into further, but perhaps think a little more before you post about another country's issues.

AllHailTheGreatGoddess · 23/08/2021 01:18

"I don't think the people demonstrating were noble Tiananmen square heroes."

Because you are currently on the 'side' of the Chinese Government in that analogy.

You can't both support the right to protest AND want protest violently suppressed when you don't agree with the protesters.

Humans are messy and unpredictable.

The harder the police/government push the more violent the backlash is going to be.

There is a middle path.

Toesies · 23/08/2021 01:21

@PicsInRed

The child shouldn't have been there in the first place.

In theory yes, but that's thin end of the wedge stuff.

The protestors shouldn't have been in Tiananmen Square in 1989 either.

Protesters were warned well in advance they should not turn up and police would be present in numbers if the did.

T Square protestors were warned similarly.

I'm sorry - you're comparing these people to the Tiananmen Square demonstrators? Confused That's just bonkers.

My DD lives nearby. (In lockdown, in course, in her tiny dorm room.) She could see and hear them all day long and was distressed and disturbed by their anger. These weren't peaceful people. They were looking for a fight.

And the child shouldn't have been there. That is bad parenting.

Toesies · 23/08/2021 01:24

@AllHailTheGreatGoddess

"I don't think the people demonstrating were noble Tiananmen square heroes."

Because you are currently on the 'side' of the Chinese Government in that analogy.

You can't both support the right to protest AND want protest violently suppressed when you don't agree with the protesters.

Humans are messy and unpredictable.

The harder the police/government push the more violent the backlash is going to be.

There is a middle path.

Your way is chaos. And you're forgetting there's a pandemic right now.

AllHailTheGreatGoddess · 23/08/2021 01:34

Toesies "Your way is chaos. And you're forgetting there's a pandemic right now."

As opposed to the calm order we are currently living in?

I am not quite ready to cede to a police state just yet. A middle path where restrictions are ones that work, where the regulation is backed up by the science and explained to the populace.

Where a sensible discussion can be had where we acknowledge that this thing exists now, no matter how much we wish it were otherwise, where we consider the balance points between lives lost to Covid/overwhelming of the medical system against the cost of lives lost to lockdown and the ongoing effects harsh laws and lockdowns are going to have not just on lives lost but on what that means for our future.

Your way doesn't work. It won't work, people will get angrier and angrier and all semblance of control will be lost.

StartupRepair · 23/08/2021 02:00

Thing is the cool girl approach of it doesn't matter how many people get sick and die but the economy wants us to open up, is being pushed by the Australian Federal government and one state government, NSW. These governments are both completely discredited as being incompetent, corrupt and devoid of any vision other than clinging onto power. So I (and I believe many others) am not inclined to follow them over the cliff of economic rationalism.

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AllHailTheGreatGoddess · 23/08/2021 02:12

"cool girl" LOL, it has been a long time since I have been either cool or a girl.

Age, experience and research tell me that the greater long term threat is authoritarianism.

Nevertheless, I have hope that cooler heads will prevail.

Ozgirl75 · 23/08/2021 02:37

@StartupRepair it’s a little simplistic to say it’s either the economy or people. People are the economy. Lockdowns come with huge health, social and economic costs.
Personally I think a focus on the number of hospitalisations and deaths is the right metric to look at, rather than pure case numbers, because that’s the number that affect the hospitals and ongoing care for other people as well.
Does it really matter if my family get Covid and have to take a few days to recover any more than it needs to be reported if we get a bad cold and have to take it easy for a few days?

DetMcNulty · 23/08/2021 03:00

Mark McGowan's popularity is at something like 78%, the Liberals were wiped out last election, and I think this is the reason he's being targeted so much by right wing media / liberal premiers, when his message and comments are being deliberately distorted, and they're doing the same with the Doherty institute plans, cherry picking the positive without being clear on the caveats they've laid out too.

Should also bear in mind, WA's economy is dependent on resources and farming, the kind of lock downs NSW and Victoria are seeing would be extremely harmful, keeping borders controlled (not shut!) will protect the most vulnerable and keeps WA businesses going. Our geography is so different to elsewhere, there are single farms bigger than countries here, and there's just a more isolationist outlook due to distances so get anywhere.

Opening up borders is more beneficial for the more privileged, there's a far higher % of population who don't leave the State in normal times. Compared to the East Coast, travel is more expensive and time consuming. WA also has a history of being more independent than the other states, the one and only referendum on seceding from was successful, but was ruled invalid, WA has never implemented daylight savings to keep in sync with the others, so there's definitely a perception that WA can go it's own way to some extent, although I think there's now a feeling that it's inevitable it will get here (my company is beefing up it's contingency plans / workforce plans for ensuring we can still operate our offshore facilities on skeleton staff if need be) but we want to buy as much time as possible. I'd take schools being kept fully open, community sports for my kids continuing, no day to day restrictions over open borders any day for now.

Ozgirl75 · 23/08/2021 03:14

I totally see where you’re coming from @DetMcNulty and I felt similar a few months ago in Sydney, when I was as comparing us to the U.K.

The ease of day to day life was worth sacrificing some of the “big” freedoms (like travel). However, now I appreciate that Covid can’t be avoided forever and now we’re in the eye of Covid, I’m kind of pleased we’ve got started so that we can get through and out the other side and back to normality.

Ozgirl75 · 23/08/2021 03:15

But you should also take comfort in the fact that you can open up once you’re at 70% or 80% vaccinated which should have you avoid the worst of the hospitalisations and deaths.

DetMcNulty · 23/08/2021 03:36

I agree, it's definitely only a matter of time, and we will need to open up but the approach is right for now. I think our extremely low level of density will help us mitigate some of the spread once it does arrive. We don't have the tower blocks, high density populations you guys do, and the poorer communities tend to be more remote and spread out, even in Perth, never mind the regions. Even our CBD never has that high traffic flow you get over East (a separate issue we've been grappling with even before Covid).

Selfishly, I also want my kids to get through their year 10 and 12 exams undisrupted 1st. I'm still unclear on the evidence as to whether hot weather actually does help or not, if it does, would be better to wait for summer too.

PicsInRed · 23/08/2021 07:14

I'm sorry - you're comparing these people to the Tiananmen Square demonstrators?That's just bonkers.

No, I'm pointing out that just as the first punch paves the way towards more violence for less "justification", the first use of disproportionate police force against protestors - no matter how distasteful the protestors are - paves the way towards comfort in the use of excessive force against protestors like you and me, when protesting things that "matter"... to you and me.

The Sarah Everard vigil/protest in the UK is a good example of where that path leads.

PicsInRed · 23/08/2021 07:18

@AllHailTheGreatGoddess

"cool girl" LOL, it has been a long time since I have been either cool or a girl.

Age, experience and research tell me that the greater long term threat is authoritarianism.

Nevertheless, I have hope that cooler heads will prevail.

This, and one could easily argue that the "cool girl" side of the debating chamber is those arguing that ever greater suppression of rights of dissent is fine, all rights will be returned, chill, nothing to see here.
MRex · 23/08/2021 07:31

This is bizarre. It doesn't matter who someone's parent is, nor what the parent is doing, it's just never ok to injure a child. It's particularly not ok for the police, as representatives of the state, to injure a child. Other options should have been tried first. From time to time bad things happen in every country, but they should always be roundly condemned and the officer responsible should be disciplined, otherwise all our children are in danger.

DetMcNulty · 23/08/2021 07:46

I genuinely haven't seen, and can't find on quick google search anything about a child being sprayed, can anyone send a link? I think these protests were foolish, and counter productive but would be concerned about any impacts on right to protest.

Toesies · 23/08/2021 07:49

@MRex

This is bizarre. It doesn't matter who someone's parent is, nor what the parent is doing, it's just never ok to injure a child. It's particularly not ok for the police, as representatives of the state, to injure a child. Other options should have been tried first. From time to time bad things happen in every country, but they should always be roundly condemned and the officer responsible should be disciplined, otherwise all our children are in danger.

I repeat: the child shouldn't have there. If you suggest that police should all other options first because there is a child present - and they may not have known that - protestors may start bringing them all the time. You know they would.

MRex · 23/08/2021 07:53

@Toesies - according to the father, they weren't even attending the demo originally: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/video-police-mace-child-eviction-protest-b1906242.html?amp. I'm sorry, but you can't use "patent took them on a public street" as sufficient justification for using pepper spray on children.