Mandatory vaccines for care workers now law.

[MercyBooth]

Big Brother Watch
@BigBrotherWatch
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Police cars revolving lightBREAKING

Mandatory vaccines for care workers is now law. Millions more workers will be affected.

The House of Lords passed the new law after just 90 minutes debate, with a regret motion noting there is insufficient evidence for it and that the severity of impact is unknown.

twitter.com/BigBrotherWatch/status/1417573871130234883?s=20

Add to that the pressure from the start with untested going into care homes and it spreading, and the legacy left with the staff who had to deal with it, plus the fact we're about to be thrown under the bus again with regards to not isolating with a positive contact, and fatigue sets in.

Care staff are humans, they have been, and continue to be asked, blackmailed and bullied to meet professional requirements and expectations and be accountable yet not trained, regarded, paid as professionals.
Something has got to give, and as it won't be better training, conditions and pay it'll be care quality as people leave for jobs with less blame and blackmail and equal if not more money.

@MercyBooth

In that case i apologise *@changingstages* Its because ive seen the term thrown around far too freely.

I get it - and I am very pro-vaccine so i could see why you might think that's what I was saying. But I just think we might need to look at terminology a bit...

Good. I don’t want people who have chosen not to have the vaccine looking after my grandparents.

@Iquitit

Add to that the pressure from the start with untested going into care homes and it spreading, and the legacy left with the staff who had to deal with it, plus the fact we're about to be thrown under the bus again with regards to not isolating with a positive contact, and fatigue sets in.

Care staff are humans, they have been, and continue to be asked, blackmailed and bullied to meet professional requirements and expectations and be accountable yet not trained, regarded, paid as professionals.
Something has got to give, and as it won't be better training, conditions and pay it'll be care quality as people leave for jobs with less blame and blackmail and equal if not more money.

I have a horrible feeling you're right, and it's the utter unwillingness in so many quarters to even consider this possibility that worries me. All very well saying you don't want an unvaccinated carer looking after your loved one, but would you feel the same if it were that or nothing? I've not been able to find anything from the government about plans to mitigate the impact of staff losses due to this policy either.

I've not been able to find anything from the government about plans to mitigate the impact of staff losses due to this policy either.

The government doesn’t care. We all know how expendable Boris thinks the over 80s are. As for the people who earn minimum wage who care for them, well we all know the Tories views on them too.

I have a horrible feeling you're right, and it's the utter unwillingness in so many quarters to even consider this possibility that worries me. All very well saying you don't want an unvaccinated carer looking after your loved one, but would you feel the same if it were that or nothing? I've not been able to find anything from the government about plans to mitigate the impact of staff losses due to this policy either.

It's not the vaccine really that's the problem, the problem is it's thrown the state of health care and social care into sharp focus and people are speaking out about that.
Many are speaking out about the failures that this will compound and are refusing to take the blame this time - that is leading to discord because people are so used to putting their elderly relatives in the care of other people, and then switching off to the minority of voices that are raising concerns and dismissing them as lazy, or having a chip on their shoulder, or being conspiracy theorists that now the voices are growing they're realising that this is a societal problem, that they too might be partly responsible for not demanding better, sooner and that's an uncomfortable place to be.

This nonsense about mandatory hepatitis vaccination always gets trotted out.
Its not true. You can work as a doctor. You can work as a nurse. You can't do risky surgery, that's all. Many vaccinated still don't produce an adequate immune response. They still can work. No vaccines were mandatory in the UK. I've had mine, I agree with vaccination, but it shouldn't be forced at all. The data isn't there for reduce transmission with covid currently. Vaccination should be primarily for the individuals benefit.

Why the bloody hell wouldn't someone who is meant to care about people want to protect them???

I don't understand people not wanting to do so and I totally agree it should be a requirement.

I work for the NHS we were told to go but not one colleague refused so why shouldn't care workers be made to do the same

so why shouldn't care workers be made to do the same

Not that hard to see how untested residents ended up in care homes is it?

@raffegiraffe

This nonsense about mandatory hepatitis vaccination always gets trotted out. Its not true. You can work as a doctor. You can work as a nurse. You can't do risky surgery, that's all. Many vaccinated still don't produce an adequate immune response. They still can work. No vaccines were mandatory in the UK. I've had mine, I agree with vaccination, but it shouldn't be forced at all. The data isn't there for reduce transmission with covid currently. Vaccination should be primarily for the individuals benefit.

At the prison I had to have a hep jab within my probationary period or not pass. They were crap at enforcing this, but it was in the contract.

Would you like to tell me and many others we are liars again?

@MercyBooth

I have concerns that the anti vax label is being thrown around far too freely as a silencing tactic. Rubber stamped by the fact that people who have had all their other jabs are being called this. Its abusive.

@MercyBooth If you bothered to read my post you’d see I have serious concerns about enforced vaccination. I’m opposed to it. I think it’s wrong. I do not support it at all. Hope that’s clear.

I suppose I should be happy the general public suddenly give a shit about social care workers. However, but I have my suspicions they don’t really care about the poor working conditions, inadequate pay and lack of respect nor do these people really care about who the care workers look after.

@Mickarooni Ten years ago when i joined MN i was part of a group which grew on here and spilled over onto Twitter called the Frothers. We campaigned and signed petitions on those issues and others.

@omgthepain

Why the bloody hell wouldn't someone who is meant to care about people want to protect them???

I don't understand people not wanting to do so and I totally agree it should be a requirement.

I work for the NHS we were told to go but not one colleague refused so why shouldn't care workers be made to do the same

Because a lot of people working in care are in that job because it is easy to get into and they need the money and/or want to avoid Job Centre sanctions.

There is not a long line of people wanting to work in care. quite the opposite.

It is ok though. You stood on your doorstep and clapped for them last year. Now you can call them selfish and insist they get fired.

Care work is always advertised in Job Centres as last resort job. It has NEVER been treated as a job of worth

If care workers do leave they could well be replaced by someone who doesnt want to be there and wants to avoid a UC sanction. I know not all unemployed people are like this but it would still be a risk.

First they came for the care home workers, and I did not speak up because I was not a care home worker. Then they came for hospitality staff, and I did not speak up because I do not work in hospitality. By the time they came for me, there was no one left to speak up for me.

Remember what history has taught us. Even if this doesn't affect you, even if you don't work in a care home and have no plans to ever work in one, you should still stand up for those who do. If it can happen to them, it could happen to you one day as well.

This has been the law for a lot of other vaccinations such as the flu vaccine and the hepatitis vaccine. I don't see why the covid one should be any different. We get them to protect our patients and if we don't want to, then we can leave and work elsewhere. No one is forcing people to stay and get the jabs.

At the prison I had to have a hep jab within my probationary period or not pass. They were crap at enforcing this, but it was in the contract.

So, although badly enforced, it was a condition of employment before you signed the contract? You were aware that it was an expectation of you before you agreed to take the job?

That's my issue with enforcing this on care workers, no vaccination has ever been suggested or facilitated for care workers, you're not asked your vaccination status for even routine vaccination like TB, polio or tetanus.
It's not even been a conversation never mind an expectation, and 4 months into a vaccination program of a new vaccination, against a new disease, it's mandatory for care workers, before all care workers have had the chance to even have it, no education or information, just do it or else. It's not something that has ever been a concern in care work, there's no baseline, no pre standing knowledge to come from.

No plans to introduce vaccination of anything else (though I do believe now they're 'talking' about making flu vaccination the same) - are people more dead from covid than anything else that their care workers could bring in?

It's a new vaccine with no proven track record and care workers are being told regardless of that, if they've even got concerns they're not fit for care work, so why aren't care workers allowed to think about this and the possible effects that the vaccine could have on them personally?

Residents can refuse, visitors don't have to have it to come into the home, and from Aug 16th care workers will be expected to attend work even if they're exposed to a positive case, because it has led to staff shortages in an already short staffed industry. So instead of looking at why care is short staffed and addressing that, to improve recruitment and retention, the people in care are put at risk of infection instead.

But it's about protecting the vulnerable?!

I personally think that care workers should be required to have vaccination for things like flu, hep and covid but it's never been seen as important enough before, and still isn't for anything other than covid. I don't have issues with having to have vaccinations to work in care, I have issues with the way it's being done, how it's being framed and delivered and how people seem so desperate to point the finger at care workers yet simultaneously ignore and berate them for any concerns about anything they might have.
Start with education, training and programs of vaccination for everything, and there will then be a starting knowledge base, an awareness to start from.
Professionals when it suits, not professionals when it suits.

NHS staff have never been mandated to have the flu vaccine and take up is pretty poor historically.

Without doubt medical staff have taken the flu virus into medical settings and passed it to vulnerable patients. Happens all the time. Happening today.

Macron not fucking about - 800k vaccinated following this.

[quote MercyBooth]@Mickarooni Ten years ago when i joined MN i was part of a group which grew on here and spilled over onto Twitter called the Frothers. We campaigned and signed petitions on those issues and others.[/quote]
That’s awesome :) and I know some people are definitely on side. I don’t believe everyone is though. As always in life, some people use things to further their own agenda.

Macron not fucking about - 800k vaccinated following this.

Yes, well his ultimatum certainly sharpens the minds of those who haven't been vaccinated into thinking about what is really important to them. Clearly socialising is by those figures! I don't support what he's done but I understand why he has.

Re the care homes (and thank you @Iquitit for such clear and calm posts with a lot of good info), I think it's far more difficult to keep out Covid than by mandating vaccination of care workers. We know vaccination isn't 100% effective. That means there will be care workers who will still possibly bring in Covid even if they're double jabbed. Ditto for visiting relatives, who may be unvaccinated or just carrying the virus unknowingly - unless they're going to be mandated too? Even so there's still a risk There's no way care homes won't have outbreaks of Covid that will kill people. Probably less than if everyone is jabbed, but still.

Then what about outings? Are the residents going to be allowed out into potentially virus-infected spaces? And what about new variants? How long before we have one that evades the vaccines, even if partially? How difficult is it going to be to keep up with this, how many boosters will be needed? Right now it feels like an endless treadmill we cannot get off. Vaccinating all care staff may not be as effective as is hoped.

@CrunchyCarrot

Macron not fucking about - 800k vaccinated following this.

Yes, well his ultimatum certainly sharpens the minds of those who haven't been vaccinated into thinking about what is really important to them. Clearly socialising is by those figures! I don't support what he's done but I understand why he has.

Re the care homes (and thank you @Iquitit for such clear and calm posts with a lot of good info), I think it's far more difficult to keep out Covid than by mandating vaccination of care workers. We know vaccination isn't 100% effective. That means there will be care workers who will still possibly bring in Covid even if they're double jabbed. Ditto for visiting relatives, who may be unvaccinated or just carrying the virus unknowingly - unless they're going to be mandated too? Even so there's still a risk There's no way care homes won't have outbreaks of Covid that will kill people. Probably less than if everyone is jabbed, but still.

Then what about outings? Are the residents going to be allowed out into potentially virus-infected spaces? And what about new variants? How long before we have one that evades the vaccines, even if partially? How difficult is it going to be to keep up with this, how many boosters will be needed? Right now it feels like an endless treadmill we cannot get off. Vaccinating all care staff may not be as effective as is hoped.

Well, getting irate doesn't do the cause much good really as I've learned! Trying to tell people how it is from the pov of doing it every day or night has marginally more success, care workers are already written off as not being able, intelligent or driven enough to do better. Though it does make me angry and frustrated that people are so willingly blinkered and I've let that show on other forums and posts before now!

As far as I know, visitors are not mandated to have the vaccine, the guidance said they will not be. It's anyone working within the home, including sub contractors like plumbers etc, though I'm not sure if NHS staff that visit homes are also mandated, as they come under the NHS as their employers and they've not been mandated?

The guidance we received and therefore put out to families is that residents are "allowed" to go out, but outside only, not inside pubs/restaurants/shops etc and public toilets - I mean of all the places an elderly person may need to visit on a trip out, I'd lay my last pound a toilet will be one of them!
I'm not going to speculate how much people have adhered to this when taking their elderly relatives out, but suffice to say a couple of ours cannot keep a secret and we know these guidelines haven't been followed. I get why though, it's been a long time and their time left is limited.

It's going to be impossible to keep it out, and by definition, the concequences are going to be hard to deal with.
My main worry is that people, despite the double vaccinated staff, will still point the finger and blame the workers, yes that might sound selfish but I'm sick of being screwed over quite frankly, it's time care providers, governing bodies and the government stepped up and met their duty of care and stopped putting it all on the workers on the floor.

This has been the law for a lot of other vaccinations such as the flu vaccine and the hepatitis vaccine

Incorrect. No vaccine is mandated by law for anyone currently in the UK. Hep B is a hospital trust policy issue and flu vaccination has never been obligatory.

I don’t support the idea of mandatory vaccination. Flawed thinking - unvaccinated rellies can pass it on -as can any of us who’ve been double vaccinated! The thought of unmotivated care home staff replacing those unvaccinated but with care experience and existing rapport with patients - is awful.

Don’t get me started on forcing care homes to accept COVID patients. This is my abiding memory on about the poor management of this pandemic.

It’s all a bit North Korea for me and most crucially points to a lack of intelligence and joined up thinking in government.