Teens will not be routinely vaccinated, JCVI recommends

[noblegiraffe]

Their report isn't out till tomorrow, but continuing with the govt tradition of making big announcements via favoured news outlets, the Telegraph reports that the guidance will be that children aged 12+ will not be offered routine covid vaccinations.

"Instead, under guidance due to be issued on Monday, jabs will be offered to children between 12 and 15 who are deemed vulnerable to Covid or who live with adults who are immunosuppressed or otherwise vulnerable to the virus. They will also now be offered to all 17-year-olds within three months of their 18th birthday."

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/17/children-will-get-covid-vaccines-vulnerable/

So from September, there will be literally nothing stopping covid spreading around schools bar the odd open window.

I’m sure it will become available privately. There’s always someone happy to make money out of parents’ fear.

It's not available privately. So we have to send children into unventilated, crowded spaces which are effectively covid petri dishes without any protection.

Which frankly is absolutely chilling.

I find it very weird that people who are anti-vaccine are usually also anti-mask. Surely if we can't vaccinate children we should be ventilating and masking in schools.

Well we don’t ventilate and wear masks in schools every year for rsv and flu and they hospitalise and kill far more children than coronavirus. So maybe they just look at it from that perspective?

@Sockwomble

"Who qualifies as vulnerable? Will it include learning disabilities?"

Children with a LD are in the flu group so I would expect them to be classed as CV. 16 and over with a LD have already been vaccinated as have some of those under 16 who live in residential care.

Thanks Sockwomble.

@Abraxan

Also, the flu vaccine will also offer some protection against covid-19 in younger people.

Will it?
Surely flu is a different virus to covid and there the Flu jab only protects from that, not from covid too.

In 2020 it was looking like BCG vaccine offer protection from covid

www.cedars-sinai.org/newsroom/study-tb-vaccine-linked-to-lower-risk-of-contracting-covid-19/

But I don't think it held up as much as first thought:
www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-87731-9

Similar thing were observed with flu jabs
www.diabetes.co.uk/news/2020/oct/nhs-flu-vaccine-found-to-offer-protection-against-covid-19.html
www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/12/flu-jab-may-reduce-severe-effects-of-covid-suggests-study
www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/can-getting-a-flu-shot-help-protect-against-covid-19#Flu-vaccine-study
www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-flu-shot-might-reduce-coronavirus-infections-early-research-suggests/

I think it stopped the covid 19 infections being so bad rather than offering protection from infection - there was talk of priming the immune system.

I'm not sure if flu jab held up better than BCG and it clearly won't be anywhere near as good as a covid 19 vaccine.

However the young and much less at risk from covid- it's a really odd virus in that age is the massive factor - flu also kills young children.

They are suggesting vaccinating the 12+ who have additional risks and they are keeping the decesion for 12-16 population under review.

@Sockwomble, does being in the flu group automatically mean you are officially classed as CV? My ds’s paediatric consultant specifically requested he be given the flu vaccination by the GP, as even relatively minor viruses cause long term illness for him and can leave him bedridden for months. The GP screwed up and he didn’t get it the year before last (we gave up trying to sort it and paid for it instead in the end) so he had it for at the GP’s for the first time last year.

His health issue lies in a grey area between neurology and cardiology, so the whole CV classification thing is complicated for him. He’s now moved to adult care and it seems no-one seems to want to take responsibility for saying he should be vaccinated.

My understanding is, for LD’s to count at CV, they need to be on the GP’s Learning Disabilities Register. The same with my eldest, who is on the Severe Mental Illness Register, which also qualifies people for the jab. He’s due his second jab this week. The irony being, he is far less vulnerable to Covid than my 17 year old, who hasn’t been able to have the vaccine.

@bumbleymummy

Well we don’t ventilate and wear masks in schools every year for rsv and flu and they hospitalise and kill far more children than coronavirus. So maybe they just look at it from that perspective?

We vaccinate children against flu. Also, flu and rsv are not novel viruses with exponential growth potential and a far higher mortality rate across all age groups.

Yes, some children are vaccinated against flu and even with that hospitalisations and deaths are higher. I think the constant reporting of cases and deaths has made people lose perspective of risk in relation to other things.

@theemperorhasnoclothes,

All viruses with an r number greater than 1grow exponentially, it is just how maths works.

The idea is for children to get COVID.

I think this is a terrible idea and vaccinating them would be infinitely preferable, for many reasons, even if deaths are ever so marginally higher.

Ultimately, the wealthy and powerful will find a way to vaccinate their children (abroad, private ‘left over’ doses, claiming they are carers to vulnerable parents etc). I will definitely pay when it becomes available, but seems awfully unfair everyone else.

More or Less was quite good today, but they did not join up the terrible long covid stats with the child vaccination issue. Conclusion was that there is not enough vaccine to do 16/17 year olds before September, from which I conclude that they will all just have to get covid www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000y49w

"does being in the flu group automatically mean you are officially classed as CV"

With adults most of the flu group is classed as CV but there may be some conditions that are not.
"My understanding is, for LD’s to count at CV, they need to be on the GP’s Learning Disabilities Register."

The problem there can be GPs not having accurate lists. Ds has been classed as ECV by the GP because of the severity of his learning disability but it does seem to be how individual GPs interpret the guidelines.

Surely learning disabilities, autism etc are conditions to get the vaccine? I can’t begin to imagine what it must mean for a parent to look after a child or a teen sick with Covid at home, let alone if (god forbid!) the condition required medical care. Even if the physical risk was not different from another child, surely the impact on mental health, habits, rhythm etc would need to be considered.
I can’t believe this is also a lottery.

So pleased to read this. I’ve had my vaccine, but there’s no way on earth I’d allow my DC to have it when 1. the risk of covid to their age group is absolutely minuscule and 2. we know very little about the long term side effects of the vaccine. It seems the main argument for vaccinating children is to stop the spread in adults, which I think is morally wrong.

Some parents would like the choice.
It's not difficult to understand.

@nonono1

So pleased to read this. I’ve had my vaccine, but there’s no way on earth I’d allow my DC to have it when 1. the risk of covid to their age group is absolutely minuscule and 2. we know very little about the long term side effects of the vaccine. It seems the main argument for vaccinating children is to stop the spread in adults, which I think is morally wrong.

I don’t see where you read that argument on this thread. It’s one of the factors but most definitely the only or main one

"Surely learning disabilities, autism etc are conditions to get the vaccine?"

Children who have autism without a learning disability are not in the flu group and adults with autism but no other conditions were not in group 6. I think the problem is sometimes only direct medical vulnerability is considered. My own child isn't particularly medically vulnerable but he cannot communicate how he feels and doesn't cope with medical intervention or being in medical settings or in fact just feeling unwell.

@Sockwomble

"does being in the flu group automatically mean you are officially classed as CV"

With adults most of the flu group is classed as CV but there may be some conditions that are not.
"My understanding is, for LD’s to count at CV, they need to be on the GP’s Learning Disabilities Register."

The problem there can be GPs not having accurate lists. Ds has been classed as ECV by the GP because of the severity of his learning disability but it does seem to be how individual GPs interpret the guidelines.

The GP I spoke to about my eldest had never heard of LD and SMI registers. This is despite constant communications and updates from his Psych, including reports confirming he was classed as clinically severe. We were told by his SNs educational placement that he should be on either or possibly both and I should contact the surgery to make sure he was.

I had to direct the GP to the guidance, then talk them through it. Then the Vaccine Lead refused to vaccinated him, as they had no idea SMI’s were a priority group. Once again I had to direct them to the right page in the government guidance. Unbelievable! I can’t help wondering how many vulnerable individuals are patients at this multi-surgery healthcare group, but not properly recorded or coded.

I still have no idea whether or not ds2 will be allowed the vaccination, but I suspect not, going on past performance and the fight for ds1, who was actually clearly eligible under official guidance.

@cherin

Surely learning disabilities, autism etc are conditions to get the vaccine? I can’t begin to imagine what it must mean for a parent to look after a child or a teen sick with Covid at home, let alone if (god forbid!) the condition required medical care. Even if the physical risk was not different from another child, surely the impact on mental health, habits, rhythm etc would need to be considered. I can’t believe this is also a lottery.

My eldest has ASD, but didn’t qualify for a vaccine because of it.

He was only allowed one because he has a severe mental illness, which was documented to have been severely impacted by covid. He was 18 at the time and despite being fully eligible, it was still a real battle to get our GP to do it. Then, a few weeks after fighting to get him the vaccination he was entitled to and him finally being jabbed, they started vaccinating all over 18’s anyway.

This really feels terribly unfair. On the children and on their parents, who don’t all have the time, energy and resources to untangle all of this :-(

I think the problem is sometimes only direct medical vulnerability is considered
Yes, this was a problem since the group 4/6 issues also. The fact that healthy 18 year olds can now get vaccinated without even needing an appointment surely means that GPs must stop denying access to the vaccine based on medical vulnerability. I think there is research demonstrating that mental health can be made worse by Covid infection. I should think that applies to anyone not neurotypical.
All I can see with this only vulnerable over 12s getting the vaccine advice from JCVI is a repeat of the GP practice manager getting to decide who is and isn't vulnerable just like with the adults, leading to a lot of stress and upset of people who did actually fall within the eligibility criteria.

And if you don't want your DC vaccinated, fine, your choice, just stop trying to prevent everyone else's DC getting vaccinated.

And another thing the MHRA is far far higher up in terms of safety assessment and drug approvals than the JCVI. The first is the actual independent expert regulatory authority where all the safety data get sent directly, the second is a government advisory committee comprising a range of expertise and opinions.

@cherin

This really feels terribly unfair. On the children and on their parents, who don’t all have the time, energy and resources to untangle all of this :-(

Sadly, it’s just more of the same old story when it comes to vulnerable children and/or those with SEN, illness and/or disabilities. I have one of each of the latter, plus the same health issues as ds2 myself and every single thing they need involves a massive fight through ridiculously complex systems, designed to put people off trying. It’s just a merry-go-round of buck-passing and no-one wanting to actually step up and help.

I thought/hoped it might get easier as they got older, but it has actually got worse.

@aldkj, absolutely!

If under the new guidance teens can be vaccinated 3 months prior to their 18th birthday, four out of six of ds2’s, super-fit and healthy, friendship group will be able to be jabbed imminently, whereas he will have to go through the whole of the winter virus season unprotected and will be the last of his group to be done. It makes zero sense not to prioritise the most vulnerable in younger groups, just as they did with older groups.

I don’t think anyone should be forced to vaccinate their dc, it’s a very personal choice, based on individual circumstances and opinions. Adults a the choice regarding their own vaccinations and I would expect the roll-out to children to be no different. That doesn’t mean that those of us and/or our teens who are old enough to decide for themselves, who do want the jab, should be prevented from accessing it.

Informed consent is a wonderful thing. We have done our research, so has ds2. We have had long conversations about the pros/cons. After all that, he wants to be vaccinated and he should be given the choice, preferably ahead of peers who are a few months older, but far less vulnerable.

The lottery aspect is depressing, even within a health authority. The DC of a friend whose husband had cancer several years ago and has been clear and in good health since were invited for vaccine, but my DS was not although DH has a heart condition and had a heart attack at Christmas, so is at least as vulnerable. It is quite subjective!

@permanentlydizzy do you know that the 17 and 9 months thing is about continuity. The same rules apply to under 18s and fully vaccinated adults. If they could not get first jab until 18th birthday there would be a few months where they have different rules from others - eg they would have to isolate post contact. It is a bit of pragmatism!

If it doesn't change by then, couldn't the 17 and 9 month thing affect exams next year for summer born children? My DS is 15, but if he was two years older I wouldn't be recommending that he have a jab that could give him flu like symptoms just before exams. I think there should be more flexibility, such as down to 17 and a half at least.