Can we stop the "hygiene theatre"?

[Hamilbamil]

It's been said for a long time that the chances of transmission from surface contact and extremely small. I've copied an extract from a BBC article today below providing further details.

With this in mind, shouldn't we rein back on the "hygiene theatre" that has become part of daily life in so many places. In particular schools where, despite being in close proximity and massless all day, pupils and teachers spend an entirely disproportionate amount of time washing and sanitising. This isn't merely harmless activity, but actively reduces the amount of education our children are receiving as significant time is wasted carrying out these elaborate rituals.... all to give the false impression of being "Covid-safe".

Enough... Of course hygiene is good, but there's no excuse now to get back to normality in this area.

"At the start of the pandemic, a lot of focus was on surfaces. People washed groceries and avoided touching buttons at pedestrian crossings. Councils shut playgrounds and cordoned off park benches.Yet it's been all but impossible to find an outbreak linked to an infected surface. "It's to do with how the virus actually enters your system - it's* through the airways," says Dr Eilir Hughes, a GP and campaigner for more protective PPE for NHS staff.The virus takes hold in the body via the respiratory system - that's why testing for it involves a swab up the nose and down the back of the throat. It would take an extremely unlikely chain of events for infected droplets on an object to end up in someone's nose or throat. Hygiene is important, but washing hands and surfaces excessively, and avoiding touching objects - so-called "hygiene theatre" - has little impact on the spread of Covid."*

I disagree. As a teacher, I can tell you that surfaces in schools are touched thousands of times a day more than normal surfaces are. Children and adolescents touch each other more than adults. Young children put things in their mouths, and in high schools pupils move around rooms six or seven times a day, so washing down the desks is a good idea.

I agree that ventilation is more important, but I actually think these hygiene rules should be here to stay. Normally, in schools, especially in winter, everybody gets sick with every cold or flu going around. This year, hardly anybody has been. It would improve attendance all around for both staff and students if we kept some of these basic hygiene measures.

@RainatMoonlight

I disagree. As a teacher, I can tell you that surfaces in schools are touched thousands of times a day more than normal surfaces are. Children and adolescents touch each other more than adults. Young children put things in their mouths, and in high schools pupils move around rooms six or seven times a day, so washing down the desks is a good idea.

I agree that ventilation is more important, but I actually think these hygiene rules should be here to stay. Normally, in schools, especially in winter, everybody gets sick with every cold or flu going around. This year, hardly anybody has been. It would improve attendance all around for both staff and students if we kept some of these basic hygiene measures.

Probably more to do with the face that schools were closed to the majority and the rest of the population were in lock down rather than Brenda and Doris with their antibac spray

@jerrywesterby

The best one is our local estate agents not providing printed particulars because passing a piece of paper to someone is obviously a massive COVID risk and the "government" say it's not allowed!

I think I can top that. When I had my first jab, the volunteer staff were wiping down every chair the second someone vacated it with the same dirty old cloth that were holding onto for dear life. Doubly pointless and possibly even counterproductive.

@clary

I so agree! I was with a colleague at work the other day and we needed to go to a different building - she pressed a button to open the door, and also used a door handle, through her sleeve.

What on earth is she going to do when out and about in a vest top and shorts this summer? I am genuinely worried that we are giving a message that touching any surface is bad and could kill you. It does matter as it is damaging the nation's mental health and wasting time!

And the plastic waste we are creating is crazy! I went to the opticians a while ago and the staff were wiping down the seats between each person. WTF? I am not going to catch covid through my bum - nor yet give it to anyone that way. I wasn't planning on licking the chairs either. It's just wasteful and presumably an expense that is passed on to the customer.

No, but you are likely to touch your seat with your hand and then perhaps touch your eyes, nose or mouth with the same hand a little later. Even if you don't do this personally, research consistently shows that most people do. That's why they are wiping down the seats.

www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2020/07/30/coronavirus-face-touching/

I'm surprised at the number of people on this thread moaning about tiny, unimportant things like having to sanitise their hands. Seriously, #firstworldproblems.

We're in the middle of a pandemic. Yes, Covid spreads far more easily through the air and more focus should be given to ventilation than it is, but they also think around 3% of cases are spread by touch. That's 3 in every 100 people will contract it by touch. If you do the maths, it can rise exponentially from this. I honestly can only think that some people don't understand exponential growth (and how quickly three people, who initially caught it from touch, can turn into thousands of people catching it from touch).

@Gullible2021 being nosy but is it neutropenia? I don't come across many other adults with it! I have autoimmune neutropenia

@jerrywesterby No, I no longer live in the UK. Where I live, schools have only been shut for 5 weeks since the start of the pandemic, despite a huge second wave. As I said, far fewer colds and viruses than before. This was noted and confirmed by our infirmary, which is attached to the school.

[quote PawsQueen]@Gullible2021 being nosy but is it neutropenia? I don't come across many other adults with it! I have autoimmune neutropenia [/quote]
Neutropenia is one of the aspects of a more
complex and rare autoimmune condition that I have. My mother has neutropenia too and there's a history of blood disorders on my Dad's side so guessing there is a genetic link. I'm just a bit of a medical mystery lol.

@MaybeCrazy2

Quarantined xmas cards makes sense though, because if one child has even just a innocent cold, it would spread through the whole class. (Some people lick envelopes to seal them)

If one child has a cold or anything else the least of your worries is licking a bloody envelope. Have you been in a primary school before? I worked in them for years and can confidently say that the kids are more likely to catch something from just being in general contact. Kids hug, kiss, and yes even lick eack other, things that other kids have licked, sneezed on etc. I really wouldn't worry about christmas cards. It is ridiculous.

@RainatMoonlight

I disagree. As a teacher, I can tell you that surfaces in schools are touched thousands of times a day more than normal surfaces are. Children and adolescents touch each other more than adults. Young children put things in their mouths, and in high schools pupils move around rooms six or seven times a day, so washing down the desks is a good idea.

I agree that ventilation is more important, but I actually think these hygiene rules should be here to stay. Normally, in schools, especially in winter, everybody gets sick with every cold or flu going around. This year, hardly anybody has been. It would improve attendance all around for both staff and students if we kept some of these basic hygiene measures.

It just worried me a bit that we seem to trying to achieve a sort of permanently sterile (or as close to sterile as we can get) environment and into the mindset that any exposure to the sort of normal illnesses we have always been exposed to should now be avoided indefinitely.

There are lots of studies that show that not exposing children to dirt and germs is counterproductive and results in increased incidences on leukaemia, allergies etc. Our immune systems work by reacting to exposure, no (or very limited) exposure must have an impact on that.

All the chemicals everywhere as well is a bit concerning, people are antibaccing everything to within an inch of their lives, that isn't necessary.

Obviously things need to be sanitary but a situation where all shared surfaces are cleaned several times a day is excessive and probably counterproductive in my view.

How does one prove an infection originated from a surface? Contaminated surfaces will only be contaminated for hours to a few days. By the time someone comes down with symptoms the surface wouldn't be contaminated anymore...

Touching contaminated surfaces and then touching your eyes, nose, mouth is a standard way (along with airborne droplets) of catching any respiratory virus.

I'm pretty confused why people here think that's not the case for covid?

@TheVampiresWife
Priorities are eating and paying bills. Some people are eating beans on toast to begin with. What do you suggest they swap it for?

If you have several DC it could easily be a fiver a week for sanitiser etc. Just wash your hands, y'know, like we used to. Utter madness to suggest that you should swap food for sanitiser.

I've just checked. I can buy 1l of the hypoallergenic handgel for 7.90. So that is 39.5p per 50ml hand sanitiser bottle that a child may need. Now given primaries supply it. Non issue. So if teens, how many do you think they're getting through in a week - 2 maximum, so 2 teens costs £1.58,and that bottle would last a month. If two adults also, assuming the same as above means a family with 4 adults or teens would easily last a minimum of 2.5 weeks.

Prioritising your family health and safety, is as important as food.

Noone ever said that's a well fed corpse did they!

Yes washing hands for a minimum of 20 seconds is good. But let's be honest, the general hygiene of the public is awful, many walking out of toilets without washing their hands, not washing before eating. Etc. Eg. 11% of our hands are so "grossly contaminated" they are carrying as many germs as a dirty toilet bowl. It's the same for 8% of cards and 6% of notes. We already know faecal matter can be found on one in six mobile phones. As well as studies conducted in service station toilets in the UK found that 65% of women wash their hands after using the toilet, compared to just 35% of men. So 35%of women and 65% of men or 50% of adults! So yes sanitiser is needed, as many of you cannot be trusted with hand hygiene.

well in public places, pubs, restaurants, schools etc its good to be hygenic but I have been in places last year in the gaps between lock down that I initially thought were half empty due to SD and tables, so I started off feeling safe but slowly places filled up and no windows or doors were open and the staff did not understand why I wanted a window open even for a " few moments".
The bottle of sanitiser on my table would do fuck all to stop mrs mavis two tables away breathing out covid everywhere.

This year, hardly anybody has been

^^ I agree I have rarely heard someone cough or seen anyone with a stinking cold.

WE pick up plenty of germs every single day all around us - but these hygiene measures did seem to work over the winter period.

@TheVampiresWife I’m sorry you’ve been abused about not wearing a mask. I don’t think people with genuine medical reasons should ever be forced to wear them. For me personally it’s a pain especially with my glasses and constant sweating. I also feel it effects my brain fog even more. But there is no medical reason for me not to wear one.

I of course take responsibility to do everything to protect myself, but short of leaving my house in a hazmat suit there is no point me taking precautions if others dont.

Last winter was unbelievable for me and many others in my support groups, normally I’d spend the entire winter sick with constant viral infections but I had very little, I did get covid but it would have been so much worse if people had been walking around coughing and sneezing everywhere, touching everything with their germ riddled hands like they would normally do pre covid.

Santizing my shopping trolley is now more acceptable, something I’d be mocked and ridiculed for previously. Ive always packed my shopping at my car because before I put it in the bags I spray the contents of the trolley with dettol, something no one blinks an eye at now. I can walk around in public knowing if anyone is sick then the spread of their germs is drastically reduced because they are wearing masks and not coughing right over my shoulder. It’s now socially unacceptable to invade another persons personal space, yes it should have been socially unacceptable previously but now even more so.

There are others who have benefitted from this, not just people with autoimmune conditions, there are many illnesses that effect the immune system.

Absolutely
I wash my hands like I did normally
And don’t use the stinky stuff
And haven’t had covid either.

*Prioritising your family health and safety, is as important as food.

Noone ever said that's a well fed corpse did they!*

Oh for heaven's sake.

Children are very, very unlikely to become seriously ill from covid, but they're extremely likely to become unwell if they don't have access to nutritious food.

If I was down to my last £2 and had to choose between sanitiser and food for my DC, I know which I'd pick.

@WindyWindsor

How does one prove an infection originated from a surface? Contaminated surfaces will only be contaminated for hours to a few days. By the time someone comes down with symptoms the surface wouldn't be contaminated anymore...

Touching contaminated surfaces and then touching your eyes, nose, mouth is a standard way (along with airborne droplets) of catching any respiratory virus.

I'm pretty confused why people here think that's not the case for covid?

Through Randomised Controlled Trials. It does spread via surfaces, but it spreads more via the air (not through droplets but through particles that remain in the air and linger there).

@Sunshinegirl82 I don't disagree with the point that you are making about germs and exposure to them, but sanitising the main shared surfaces doesn't remove exposure to germs as we still touch thousands of shared surfaces each day (and breathe airborne particles). But certain things, like shared desks and seats, are likely to be touched more often than others, so it makes sense to sanitise them as it reduces the risk of severe infections.

@TheVampiresWife

"Oh for heaven's sake.

Children are very, very unlikely to become seriously ill from covid, but they're extremely likely to become unwell if they don't have access to nutritious food."

But their parents can become seriously ill and die, and both children and adults (regardless of how badly they were ill by Covid) have a high chance of developing Long Covid. There are still risks to children and young people.

[quote RainatMoonlight]@TheVampiresWife

"Oh for heaven's sake.

Children are very, very unlikely to become seriously ill from covid, but they're extremely likely to become unwell if they don't have access to nutritious food."

But their parents can become seriously ill and die, and both children and adults (regardless of how badly they were ill by Covid) have a high chance of developing Long Covid. There are still risks to children and young people.[/quote]
The risk of developing long covid isn't 'high'. And otherwise healthy young parents are very, very unlikely to become seriously ill and die.

I'd still spend my last £2 on food not sanitiser. Wouldn't you?

I’ve just come home from a trip to John Lewis. It was really quiet. Was going to have lunch in the cafe with my daughter but there was a couple in front of us being directed what to do...

‘Come in, follow the lines on the floor. Don’t go over the line. A member of staff will hand you cutlery....’

I didn’t listen to the rest, just declared that I wasn’t having my lunch there, being barked at.

@TheVampiresWife

The risk of Long Covid is high:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33892403/

26% of 18- 34 years olds diagnosed with Covid-19 will develop it. I personally know a colleague in her 40s with no prior health conditions who is still unable to work properly more than a year after having Covid. The thing is that it's not in the news as much as people who are in ICU, but it's very real.

Frankly, I'd rather have my health than a meal, so if it came to it, yes, I'd rather avoid infection. However, luckily sanitiser is generally provided for us in shops etc. so this isn't really an issue.

You say it's "very, very unlikely" but I wonder if you have known people who have died. I know of several otherwise young and healthy people who are either now dead, have been in ICU for weeks or who now suffer from Long Covid. It's harrowing.

Can't be bothered to read the thread but just wanted to show my support to you, OP.

Could not agree more.

Yes the risks have never been just about hospitalisation or death.

Long Covid can cause all sorts of issues, including heart, lung, kidney, and other organ damage.

It also looks like Covid can cause diabetes.

directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/08/how-covid-19-can-lead-to-diabetes/

Somewhat related- I've just come back from Butlins and we booked the dining package. The amount of disposable plastic packaging being used (eg for a portion of milk, a side salad, a bread roll) was utterly insane. There was also a person behind a cordon handing guests trays, sauces and cutlery, which made no sense at all to me as it was extra handling by another person.