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Covid

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Can anyone explain to me how this is different to flu now please?

173 replies

musicalfrog · 08/06/2021 12:11

Apart from the overseas thing, I get that other countries don't have as much protection as we do.

So -

Covid is a respiratory disease as is flu.

We now have our most vulnerable population fully vaccinated (as with flu).

Covid mutates. Just like flu. So we change the vaccine every year, same with covid.

So why are we still in this situation, wearing masks and distancing and all the other bollocks we're going for covid but don't do for flu?

OP posts:
Unsure33 · 08/06/2021 21:22

Have you heard of flu causing blood clots throughout many different organs in the body and infections in the kidneys and holes causing lungs to leak ? Because that’s what has happened to a colleague of mine in his 40s no pre-existing conditions , not overweight and in hospital now for 7 weeks .

Unsure33 · 08/06/2021 21:26

@eviesmum

Sounds horrific . Glad you are getting some sort of help .

Dustyboots · 08/06/2021 21:31

Our bodies build up resistance to flu throughout are lives, that doesn't happen with Covid.

BUT at the beginning of this there were many people who mysteriously didn’t catch COVID. It was thought they were immune for some reason. That seems to have been forgotten. But of those I know who’ve had COVID they’ve often been the only member of their family to catch it.

QioiioiioQ · 08/06/2021 21:36

covid is a virus which has gained a function, ie the ability to colonise and destroy seemingly all human organs & tissues

CorianderBee · 08/06/2021 21:40

Does long-flu exist like long Covid in children, young people and others?

Cornettoninja · 08/06/2021 21:45

@ChequerBoard yes I know. Stating the obvious was my point.

ChequerBoard · 08/06/2021 22:00

[quote Cornettoninja]@ChequerBoard yes I know. Stating the obvious was my point.[/quote]
Not very well made then was it?

AlmostSummer21 · 08/06/2021 22:01

@Gwenhwyfar

"Yes 80-90% need to be vaccinated to achieve true herd immunity. The WHO said the same a while back, if I recall correctly."

At the beginning, they were saying 70%.

The more transmissible the variants are, the higher the %vaccinated for herd immunity needs to be.
Meaty226 · 08/06/2021 22:10

Who was hoping for a proper explanation other than "get with the narrative [toss in some insults]"

I haven't read anything respectable that explains in laymans terms what the fuss is about and properly answer my questions. I either find BBC type platitudes that make little sense or dodgy sites that are nonsense.

I'd like something middle ground that explains things to me not as (unsourced) government soundbites along the lines of "just believe this" but in an intelligent way, with references to sources, addressing counterarguments and limitations to the current evidence and properly addressing questions around (for example) about what it is that is special about covid (especially given its observed non-deadliness) and vs other coronaviruses (which came to nothing)

Honestly - call me thick if you wish - but I genuinely would like some good deep resources to read

Gwenhwyfar · 08/06/2021 22:13

@CorianderBee

Does long-flu exist like long Covid in children, young people and others?
Good question. People can take months to recover after an infection sometimes can't they? And there may be illnesses that are actually post-viral reactions that we don't realise.
BogRollBOGOF · 09/06/2021 00:40

Good question. People can take months to recover after an infection sometimes can't they? And there may be illnesses that are actually post-viral reactions that we don't realise.

Hopefully the "good" thing to come from Long Covid will be a better understanding of post-viral fatigues/ syndromes and auto-immune conditions that are common, poorly understood and recognised.

Having gone for zero covid by geographical isolation, countries like Australia are struggling with vaccine take-up because there's no need for an illness that's so heavily repressed. Australia can't remain that isolated indefinitely so it will have awkward choices to make long term. Those choices were taken out of our hands because Covid was established in our communities before we knew it existed to have a choice about how to react. Having been hit hard in 2020, the UK population values the vaccine and is taking it up with a very high percentage of acceptance.

Death is inevitable to us all. We hope we and our loved ones live a long, healthy life with minimal suffering at the end. Covid is not a massive game-changer on life expectancy. Either way, lockdowns and shielding have hit elderly people hard and accelerated aging faster than the usual rate. The next few winters will be harsh on frailer, old people who haven't been active and socialising which maintains their immune systems; Covid or the usual suspects.

The health impacts of social restrictions removing motivation to exercise, the life structure to avoid boredom/ comfort eating and the social isolation of being around unintelligable, inaudible, unreadable non-faces means that both my physical and mental health are in a much crapper position than they ever needed to be in.

Either way, there are major social costs, and the consequences of swerving infections by stiffling human social contact (both by social restrictions and face coverings) are not free from significant harm.

Tealightsandd · 09/06/2021 01:10

Hopefully the "good" thing to come from Long Covid will be a better understanding of post-viral fatigues/ syndromes and auto-immune conditions that are common, poorly understood and recognised

That would be good. Very needed.

But definitely they can't be assumed to be the same thing, certainly not at this stage.

Research has found Long Covid is more one issue. One is the organ damage seen in some patients (at this early stage we don't yet know how many this will effect).

Covid is a new disease - and one potentially modified in a lab. We cannot at this early stage know all the potential long term damage.

QioiioiioQ · 09/06/2021 01:23

I think it is still the case that 'serious' covid requires hospitalization whereas 'serious' flu can be managed at home...?

QioiioiioQ · 09/06/2021 01:28

and one potentially modified in a lab
Yes, combines ease of transmission with the ability to invade a wide variety of the body's organs and tissues, this is unusual in a virus which has recently jumped the species barier it appears to have gained functions in ways not normally seen

Tealightsandd · 09/06/2021 01:48

countries like Australia are struggling with vaccine take-up because there's no need for an illness that's so heavily repressed. Australia can't remain that isolated indefinitely so it will

They're not struggling. Slower start but it's rolling out. They're not a high risk country like the UK. It's not as urgent. Like you say the lives of people there (including my family) are largely normal - and their economy is doing better than "let the bodies pile up' places like the UK.

Australia can't remain that isolated indefinitely so it will have awkward choices to make long term

Why not? Not that it's necessarily the case - but if it was, if the majoriry of the public wanted to stay more isolated, then they could. Their choice.

Those choices were taken out of our hands because Covid was established in our communities before we knew it existed to have a choice about how to react.

Rubbish. We had more than one opportunity to contain. Australia had (and continues to to have the odd quarantine leak). Japan had outbreaks at the start. Cases definitely initially got in to Hong Kong. We let the horse bolt but then instead of fixing the stable door, we let all it's friends escape too. Most recently the Delta variant.

The only difference is the countries who took the common sense approach took swift strong action to contain it.

We repeatedly prioritised international travel above all else.

We choose 130,000 deaths, many long term disabled, a damaged economy AND long repeated domestic lockdowns (whilst hundreds of thousands freely flew in daily - with no checks, no working test and trace, and no real quarantine).

Tealightsandd · 09/06/2021 01:54

@QioiioiioQ

and one potentially modified in a lab Yes, combines ease of transmission with the ability to invade a wide variety of the body's organs and tissues, this is unusual in a virus which has recently jumped the species barier it appears to have gained functions in ways not normally seen
Yes. We cannot yet the know the long term damage. Yet we shouldn't try to stop it becoming endemic?

We also need to remember the rest of the world. Poorer countries with less health infrastructure, who already have other issues to deal with - like malaria. Many have done really well with keeping Covid out but they're vulnerable to countries like the UK exporting it to to them. They really don't need another endemic disease. Money, attention, and funding is already needed to tackle malaria (and other problems).

Maybeetomorrow · 09/06/2021 01:58

It’s an inflammatory disease that attacks the respiratory system. It’s different. It can also attack organs, the brain and the heart and cause blood clots.

Tealightsandd · 09/06/2021 02:02

Either way, there are major social costs, and the consequences of swerving infections by stiffling human social contact (both by social restrictions and face coverings) are not free from significant harm.

Yes. Add in significant numbers of the bereaved families (including children) who have lost one of the 130,000.

Add to that the significant psychological impact on the elderly and young vulnerable - and the broken NHS staff.

And the economic damage of failed containment. Including ongoing medical care and financial support for Long Covid disabled.

That's why the sensible (and long term cheaper) policy is get it over with. Take swift decisive action to contain - and don't keep importing new strains and letting them spread.

All why we need/ed pandemic border control, mask adherence (until majority fully vaccinated), support for isolation, and a well run test and trace.

Obviously dragging this out way longer than necessary has caused significant harm - to health and economy.

And yet people think it's ok to let it become endemic.... Condemning our children to a future as adults in a world of repeated outbreaks, annual deaths AS WELL as ones from flu, and the health, social, and financial burden of ever increasing Long Covid cases. Confused

Tealightsandd · 09/06/2021 02:04

@Maybeetomorrow

It’s an inflammatory disease that attacks the respiratory system. It’s different. It can also attack organs, the brain and the heart and cause blood clots.
This
TheClaws · 09/06/2021 02:06

Having gone for zero covid by geographical isolation, countries like Australia are struggling with vaccine take-up because there's no need for an illness that's so heavily repressed. Australia can't remain that isolated indefinitely so it will have awkward choices to make long term.

BOGOF, Australia had a slow start to vaccine take-up not because of the reason you state but because the Government rollout has been messy - plus the vaccines simply haven't been available. However, take-up is gaining pace now, so when we do open up we'll be much better placed.

Death is inevitable to us all. We hope we and our loved ones live a long, healthy life with minimal suffering at the end. Covid is not a massive game-changer on life expectancy. Either way, lockdowns and shielding have hit elderly people hard and accelerated aging faster than the usual rate. The next few winters will be harsh on frailer, old people who haven't been active and socialising which maintains their immune systems; Covid or the usual suspects.

Nice minimalisation of a virus that has killed so many elderly people. I don't know why you feel the need to do this.

Tealightsandd · 09/06/2021 02:26

Nice minimalisation of a virus that has killed so many elderly people. I don't know why you feel the need to do this.

Agreed. And erasing younger vulnerable. Deaths have absolutely not been confined to the elderly.

Death is inevitable to us all. We hope we and our loved ones live a long, healthy life with minimal suffering at the end.
So not Covid then. That's generally not a good death. A frightening lonely isolated one, yes.

Covid is not a massive game-changer on life expectancy
It is for the young people with well managed underlying conditions.

Ormally · 09/06/2021 12:30

I thought of another feature where most versions of flu differ from covid-19, with a connection to the point made upthread about the onset of symptoms after infection (about 5 days for seasonal flu, maybe 2-3 times as long for covid).

In many cases, when people report the experience of symptoms coming through from flu (infected 5 days ago but now they're making themselves felt), it can be like being floored by a rhino. Seemingly you go from fine to feeling very ill in a few hours, and your movement and capacity is often minimal for some time.

Covid seems to be demonstrating silent hypoxia as one of its special and unusual features. It's not typical of most viruses - up to now more usual from altitude sickness. Yes, you may have headache, nausea, temperature before this, 5-8 days in, but you may not, or they could be ignored as so many other things. The silent hypoxia is bad news for the lungs and the oxygen deficit, bad news for most other organs and the neuron system.

I thought this information well-presented and clear: www.news-medical.net/news/20200603/Silent-hypoxia-and-its-role-in-COVID-19-detection.aspx
From a Chief Medical Officer of a Lung Association and practising US medic, but you may need to do your own research to reach whatever else you would 'trust' on this point if you want "good, deep resources".

AlecTrevelyan006 · 09/06/2021 19:01

Scientists are concerned that measures to combat Covid-19 have weakened the immune systems of young children who have not been able to build up resistance to common bugs, leaving them vulnerable when mask-wearing and social distancing eventually end.

Contact with viral pathogens happens on a fairly regular basis and although it does not always lead to sickness, the exposure helps shore the immune system against the threat should the bugs be encountered again.

Over the past 14 months or so, protracted restrictions on mixing and travel, alongside mask-wearing and social distancing, have not only reduced the risk of Covid but other respiratory bugs such as the flu – cases of which were basically nonexistent last winter, according to surveillance data largely encompassing England compiled by the Royal College of GPs (RCGP).

However, virologists are concerned about RSV, a virus that can cause serious lung infections requiring hospital admission, and sometimes even death, in children under the age of one – and for which there are no approved vaccines.

“Flu worries me, but there is a vaccine – and so the most vulnerable will still have access to the vaccines,” said Dr Catherine Moore, consultant clinical scientist for Public Health Wales. She warned that RSV currently has no vaccine. “Whereas what Covid has done has caused a big issue in our adult ICUs, we may see conversely problems in our paediatric hospitalisations and intensive care,” she said.

Pre-Covid, most children encountered most seasonal viruses before they turned 18 months old. But the biggest influx in paediatric hospital wards each winter are babies under the age of one who have for the first time been infected with RSV – because their lungs are not well developed, their bodies struggle to fight off the infection, explained Moore.

Scientists are worried that if life begins to go back to pre-Covid normality, respiratory viruses that typically circulate every winter will return alongside the coronavirus.

Moore said she was particularly worried about the risk of RSV in young children. “We’ve got two cohorts now of children who’ve never met the virus, so they are susceptible, but there’s two years’ worth of them!”

Before the pandemic, data suggested more than 30,000 babies and children under five were admitted to hospital every year in the UK because of RSV. Assuming “normality” resumes later this year, “we are preparing for a significant impact in paediatrics”, said Moore.

According to the RCGP, a few cases of RSV were detected last month, which is atypical given the virus normally circulates in the winter in the UK.

“Late May RSV is very unusual,” said Deenan Pillay, a professor of virology at University College London and a member of the Independent Sage group. It may be a reflection of more immunological susceptibility, the fact that some Covid restrictions have been relaxed, or indeed a change in the seasonal behaviour of the virus in response to the persistent collective effort to address Covid, he said.

But there are many unknowns and it is hard to predict exactly what will happen in the winter with RSV and other pathogens, said William Irving, a professor of virology from the University of Nottingham. “We didn’t see flu last winter so if it comes back this coming winter, it may be particularly nasty.”

However, there is a flu vaccine that could stave off a considerable chunk of disease, the scientists said, acknowledging that they are hoping the experience of Covid will enhance the uptake of the flu vaccine.

“I would think that it would be a good idea to maybe combine a flu vaccine with a booster dose of the [Covid] vaccine,” said Irving. Efforts to develop a Covid-flu combination vaccine are already under way.

Gwenhwyfar · 09/06/2021 19:36

"The health impacts of social restrictions removing motivation to exercise, the life structure to avoid boredom/ comfort eating and the social isolation of being around unintelligable, inaudible, unreadable non-faces means that both my physical and mental health are in a much crapper position than they ever needed to be in.

Either way, there are major social costs, and the consequences of swerving infections by stiffling human social contact (both by social restrictions and face coverings) are not free from significant harm."

I agree. If it's short term, then, yes, maybe we can think just in terms of managing Covid, but when restrictions linger on for years then we must consider the health risks of the restrictions themselves.
I'm particularly concerned that some people seem to want some of these things to go on forever: forced working from home even after the pandemic, mask use for colds, etc. It's like a dystopian future.

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