EU/AZ Court case

[3asAbird]

The 1st Court case is tommorow wed 26th May and should have outcome by end of June.

However the EU logged a 2nd Court case seeing financial compensation as guess they spent more money buying 2nd dose pfizer at higher price.
The 2nd Court case won't be until late September.

AZ saying very little. Be interesting see how this pans out.
Hope it means a better relationship between eu and uk going forward.
It will settle the endless speculation and political tit for tat having a legal judgement.
EU still want AZ vaccines immediately.
But without INDIA exporting I don't know how az Sweden can magic up such large numbers.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/new-eu-legal-case-against-astrazeneca-over-vaccine-supplies-gets-underway-2021-05-11/

indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-why-has-the-eu-initiated-legal-action-against-astrazeneca-7291254/

Az chief said uk always had priority

www.politico.eu/article/astrazeneca-pascal-soriot-uk-priority-access-coronavirus-vaccine/

Bangladesh have made a request to uk and USA for az doses so they can 2nd dose vaccinate as any supplies from India halted.

No idea whats happening with Australia and AZ as was meant to be made there.
But we know supplied fro Europe 250k were seized from Italy by the the EU.
But AZ uk have shipped quietly to Australia.

We know despite EU claiming export ban the UK has sent pfizer components and the USA has either sent vaccines or raw materials to AZ EU sites so reprocity does exist between UK/ USA I some form so EU saying we hoarding stuff and blocking is simply not true.

If some EU countries not using AZ under 50s I wonder how much EU think they needs surely not their original order.
Seems Johnson and Johnson is being rolled out in the EU despite maybe sharing same risks as AZ.

Not you @MarshaBradyo no! Thank you @3asAbird but it’s okay, as the PP rather nastily put it, I am getting something!
Plus, would their second dose be quite as safe if a million expat Brits suddenly wanted a vaccine!?! But I think it’s justified to be annoyed that I’m not getting a properly tested combination, you can sympathize with India and still have a preference for a decently tested drug combination!

Spain’s doing okay with Pfizer and Moderna. J&J makes up a very small number. AZ only needed for a second doses mostly now. A friend is involved in curevac trials and I think it’s nearly ready to go!

It is madness to open to untested Brits without vaccine proof or lateral flows or anything but yes, the costas are desperate for tourists!

@Sunnyfreezesushi I don’t think Spain will do anything until they know how many people demand the AZ. If everyone’s happy with Pfizer they won’t mind, as they have thrombosis concerns either. But as the citizens have a right to ask for the same vaccine, if the demand outstrips supply to the extent that there are unsafe waiting times then they will have to act. I’m they’re really pushing us to go with Pfizer...!

It wasn't you either @CuriousaboutSamphire it was the person who called me "ridiculous" for being mildly uncomfortable that I'm in the position of having to mix my vaccines when it hasn't been trialled properly.

I'm sure they would be very cool with it but I'm the sort of person that carefully records the times I take a paracetamol...

That wasn't the reason I called you ridiculous! That I can actually understand........

I don’t expect people like Wakeupin2022 to give a shit about us but with that attitude I hope they don’t expect me to provide them with “adécuate care” when they come over here for a summer holiday

This was the ridiculous comment all because I think any surplus UK doses should go to other places than the EU............

Well, you can be insured up to the hilt but if the people in the country you're in aren't adequately protected and are hit from from the new variant they've invited tourists to bring in, then there won't be a bed for your insurance to pay out for?

@QuentininQuarantino - I thought several European countries had made the active decision not to do two AZ doses, but to mix them, not because of supply issues (which I thought they were aware of right from the start of their vaccination programme, not after already having vaccinated millions of people??), but due to their risk assessments on use of AZ, its purported effectiveness and blood clots, and their trials on the safety and efficacy of mixing vaccines. Regardless of supply, this is therefore their active choice, based on their risk assessments. See link: www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/spanish-study-finds-astrazeneca-vaccine-followed-by-pfizer-dose-is-safe-2021-05-18/
If the Spanish risk assessments have been all over the place and they have therefore played an effective role in discrediting the AZ vaccine and causing general chaos and confusion, by regularly advising changing groups of people not to use it at all, that is nothing to do with the UK’s behaviour.

The UK’s risk assessment, on the other hand, does not currently recommend vaccine mixing. Why, therefore, should the UK risk its 2nd dose supplies (millions are still waiting for dose 2 of AZ in the UK) by sending any to Spain, just so that Spain’s population can pick and choose whether or not they want to follow their own country’s advice? Is Spain willing to send over an equivalent number of Pfizer doses for the members of the UK population who are now so terrified of the AZ vaccine that they would also rather ignore the advice of their own country’s regulators and would prefer Pfizer for dose 2?

I can only hope that the ongoing studies show that there are some benefits to mixing some of the vaccines. That should start to come through soon, hopefully without all the hyperbole and scary headlines about bloodclots etc. Just some solid science!

I also wish that UvdL etc would just step off the brink or take a big step back. Anything but this continued posturing.

Many individual countries across the world are starting to feel a bit safer, to look towards sending vaccines elsewhere. I doubt anyone thought Spain, or any EU country, would need to be on the list of countries needing that support!

My parents, in their 70s and in Andalucia, have had both their vaccines, AZ. Other family members (Murcia) are still waiting. The rollout seems to be quite patchy across the ACs.

I said it before and think same issue stands.
The eu procurement process is bad because each country who ordered more az is worse off as result..
Under the rules a eu member state cant order addition az ie for Spain with az directly as original orders have to be fulfilled in order for them gain access to extra doses they ordered.
When as we know eu is large the situation in some member states is worse than others Lithuania was desperate to buy Denmark unwanted 200k supplies.
This rule forced some states ordering Chinese and Russian vaccines that maybe less effective as that's how chille got caught out 1st dose sinopharm not much protection.
The other thread about Denmark lady in Denmark said they donating to covax so poorer countries.
They not redistributing to member states that need it.

www.reuters.com/world/europe/who-says-denmark-looking-share-astrazeneca-vaccines-after-halting-shots-2021-04-15/

This is why Austria were moaning at the summit.
I guess logically due to land border with Ireland our spare doses would go there.
But we as uk have close relationship with France and Spain in terms ex pats and frequent travel.
We sent Gibraltar extra vaccines and they vaccinated Spanish citizens who worked in Gibraltar.
There seems be no mechanism for sensible redistribution of vaccines based on Need within the block is a major issue..

I'm annoyed for eu citizens that ther country and the commission playing political games and deflecting from their own faults.
They have been vile towards the UK this year.

It will be interesting hear about investment especially what Netherlands has to say for itself. The uk invested 22 million in the Dutch site and received no vaccines.
Not even sure if Dutch using much az.
I assume the halix site we heavily invested in has now been supplying the eu with increasing amounts of az and the UK vaccination team helped boost production there.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1418445/eu-vaccine-news-dutch-uk-investment-astrazeneca-halix-mark-rutte-netherlands

@QuentininQuarantino

Well, you can be insured up to the hilt but if the people in the country you're in aren't adequately protected and are hit from from the new variant they've invited tourists to bring in, then there won't be a bed for your insurance to pay out for?

I don't plan on going on holiday abroad during a pandemic so that doesn't worry me. I think its madness that Spain are letting in Brits without pcr test, and I am pleased that Germany have blacklisted us again. I hope others do the same.

I do hope people can travel to visit family this year as its hard being away from them, but a week or 2 in the sun is not a priority for me.

AZ is mostly being used for second doses here in France, though there are still some first doses. The vast majority are having Pfizer and there have been huge numbers delivered. Some Moderna and some Janssen as well, but Pfizer about 80% I think. Vaccination will be open to all adults from the end of May. The app for finding the nearest and quickest appointment has worked very well and people over 18 can also have any appointment that has not been taken within the time frame of 24 hours ahead. I suspect AZ won't figure much in future vaccination plans.

@HilaryThorpe

AZ is mostly being used for second doses here in France, though there are still some first doses. The vast majority are having Pfizer and there have been huge numbers delivered. Some Moderna and some Janssen as well, but Pfizer about 80% I think. Vaccination will be open to all adults from the end of May. The app for finding the nearest and quickest appointment has worked very well and people over 18 can also have any appointment that has not been taken within the time frame of 24 hours ahead. I suspect AZ won't figure much in future vaccination plans.

Which makes the now 2 court cases against az more baffling. I guess eu want money / compensation. Although they purchased as block. Many member states went against what the EMA said about safety of AZ. The EU have received more Moderna than UK. Also they now have janson 1 shot so between the 4 vaccine suppliers they should have enough vaccinate everyone.

The idea of member states or countries swapping vaccines although complex as they cost varying amounts pfizer and moderna are very expensive compared with az prices.

I don't see what more UK can do right now once we done we will share.
We helped some Spanish in Gibraltar.
We sent vaccines other British territories.
We not interfered with az productions sites and exports decisions.
We donated loads to covax.
We invested small fortune in all vaccines and doing many if the vaccine trials here.
We sent vaccine task force to Belgium and leiden Netherlands to help them increase az yeild .
We offered share az supply in Netherlands and eu said no way.
Will they refund the 21 million?
We helped lots eu truckers get tested and home when France stopped them coming back at Christmas.

The AZ thing has been completely politically handled from the UK perspective.

The EU blocked shipment to Australia due to a lack of supply to themselves when none of the AZ UK production was sent to the EU.

But somehow the UK which couldn't spare any for the EU managed to send 3/4 million doses to Oz?

Clearly the Oz shipment was designed to sweeten the relationship in hope of a trade deal, while this gov obv couldn't care less about annoying the EU.

Side note, the EU centralised purchasing of vaccines has been a disaster largely because it's been completely disconnected from the actual vaccine programs in individual nations - thus you have the absurd situation of the EU going to court over supply of a vaccine that a number of countries aren't even prepared to use!

I don't think ANYONE emerges from this shit-show without crap on their face.

@Walkaround of course it isn't the UKs problem and I don't think the UK should send any to Spain, it wasn't me that said that. (Gib/La Linea is different as they all work on both sides of the border).

I also wasn't aware of other countries mixing but would be interested to know of any other trials. So far the UK one and the Spanish one have said the complete opposite of each other.

The situation in Spain is quite complicated and not very interesting
but I'll try and sum it up below, but tl;dr - to some extent but not entirely due to devolution.

It´s like Scotland, Wales etc with devolved regions. As a country, the thrombosis thing has stopped first doses for under 60s, but the main issue was that they already did the front line workers and didn't know what to do about the second doses. So the central government makes a decision and announcement (which is reported) and the following day it has a meeting with the communities to communicate this, and similar to Nicola Sturgeon, a lot of regions decide to adapt the decision.

Mine, for example, basically threatened us that if we didn't choose pfizer we would be taking the astrazeneca off an older person, because they had a finite amount and that it would delay the vaccine drive of the elder (Astrazeneca) cohort by two weeks and cause deaths! Madrid on the other hand, has (I think) decided to ignore Spain completely and go with the EMA advice of both doses and delay the older people - Andalucia too. It is a mess.

None of that is relevant to the topic of the thread but might explain some of the chaos and confusion!!

@HilaryThorpe - a friend of mine who lives in France has been told she only needs one dose of Pfizer, because she had covid 19 in March 2020 (ie well over a year ago). Have France published their research into the advisability of this, because it’s certainly not in accordance with the way the UK vaccination programme is being run and we are constantly told there is not enough evidence to be confident about how long natural immunity from infection lasts and whether only one dose of a 2-dose vaccine will be sufficiently effective?

Yes, it's called The Commonwealth. We sent a lot of vaccines out to dependencies and the Commonwealth.

That's what we were suppose to do!

And this shit show and all that crap are not exactly unexpected are they? It's a global pandemic and most countries were caught sat on their complacent arses - politicians and public alike - including me, you, next door neighbours and the fuckwits down the road.

I don't want a witch hunt. I want a proper investigation when, and only when, the global issues are over and we can see all the data, how far, how long, how bad etc. I don't want a Grenfell version - start with the fire brigade and pinpoint their errors before looking at what pre-existing fuck ups caused some of those errors in the first place (Local Government penny pinching and manufacturers lies etc).

@QuentininQuarantino - yes, that does sound very complicated! The political game-playing is hugely unhelpful. As for vaccine mixing, my understanding is that Germany allows it, and France and the US, so Spain is definitely not an isolated case.

Here walkaround
La Haute Autorité de Santé a recommandé en février 2021 qu'une seule dose de vaccin Covid soit administrée aux personnes ayant déjà été infectée par le virus de la Covid-19. Cette dose fait office de "rappel" pour le système immunitaire. "Les personnes ayant eu une infection par le SARS-CoV-2, confirmée par un test RT-PCR ou antigénique, qu'elles aient ou non développé une forme symptomatique de la Covid-19, doivent être considérées comme protégées pendant au moins 3 mois par l'immunité post-infectieuse" a expliqué l'autorité. Elle recommande de réaliser la vaccination dans un délai proche de 6 mois et confirme qu'elle ne doit pas être envisagée avant un délai de 3 mois après l'infection.
The EU has exported half of all vaccines made in EU countries. They supplied Canada, for example, because the US wouldn't. Vaccines are not in short supply here now.

[quote Walkaround]@HilaryThorpe - a friend of mine who lives in France has been told she only needs one dose of Pfizer, because she had covid 19 in March 2020 (ie well over a year ago). Have France published their research into the advisability of this, because it’s certainly not in accordance with the way the UK vaccination programme is being run and we are constantly told there is not enough evidence to be confident about how long natural immunity from infection lasts and whether only one dose of a 2-dose vaccine will be sufficiently effective?[/quote]
As far as immunity in those who had covid, the SIREN study indicates that it's pretty good and long lasting. We won't know whether it lasts as long as vaccine induced immunity until one of the two starts failing!

And as far as "2-dose" vaccines go, it's not like araldite - it's just something observed with previous vaccines that 2, spaced-out doses give better protection than one. As far as protection goes, there is likely to be little long-term difference between 2 AZ, 1AZ+1PF, 2PF, 1Covid+1Jab etc etc. But mixing them up MAY result in more side effects....

@HilaryThorpe - that advice doesn’t talk about research into immunity of people infected by covid well over a year ago, though, does it, yet my friend has been told she is only getting one Pfizer vaccine dose. I would like to see the research into that, given the differences in different countries’ approaches in this!

I do think the politicking and smears have been terrible in all this but I can’t actually hold anything against Ox AZ as a producer of an at cost vaccine. Or any producers . That we have such fast, mass produced working vaccines is down to vision and huge amount of commitment to people behind the scenes.

Also I think a. there was a point where we thought the above wouldn’t happen and b a scenario where it didn’t is carnage. Really bad cycles and outcomes that would be hard to see.

@strangeshapedpotato

The AZ thing has been completely politically handled from the UK perspective.

The EU blocked shipment to Australia due to a lack of supply to themselves when none of the AZ UK production was sent to the EU.

But somehow the UK which couldn't spare any for the EU managed to send 3/4 million doses to Oz?

Clearly the Oz shipment was designed to sweeten the relationship in hope of a trade deal, while this gov obv couldn't care less about annoying the EU.

Side note, the EU centralised purchasing of vaccines has been a disaster largely because it's been completely disconnected from the actual vaccine programs in individual nations - thus you have the absurd situation of the EU going to court over supply of a vaccine that a number of countries aren't even prepared to use!

I don't think ANYONE emerges from this shit-show without crap on their face.

Agree with all correct except UK dident send vaccines to Australia az uk a private pharmaceutical company did Australia asked eu to reconsider sending them vaccines to help papa new guinea when they were really bad and the EU did nothing. No ones quite sure what happened to 250k vaccines bound for Australia and seized by Italy were they redistributed or did Italy pocket them? Az had a contract with oz i assume they used UK supply chain as only way to fulfill that contract. The UK government dident interfere as I assume our orders were being met.

USA finally shared their az supply with Canada/ Mexico due to EU ban on exports and their supply would have gone out of date as FDA still not approved AZ for use in the states.
Logically makes sense help nearest neighbours.
Thats why I don't get why eu member states not working together to help Spain?
Or even loan then some az short term until az eu sites deliver some more.

In the UK the difference in regional restrictions and devolved nations making their own decisions has been frustrating at times yes.
But when comes to vaccine procurement and vaccine schedule who gets what and when has been decided as a nation whole of uk.

The eu version was very disjointed.
As they brought together.
No mechanism move vaccines around.
They brought together but vaccination schedule who got done 1st and what vaccines they favoured were down to each member state and even areas within a member state like Spain/Italy and Germany .
This created a unequal playing feild.
A postcode lottery and now shortfall of 2nd doses.
The constant change age groups ,pause restart ban of az in some member states has been confusing and off putting decreasing demand for az.

I think Spain is actually doing comparatively well in terms of % vaccinated so I can understand other states not sending vaccines. It is where I live so I talk about it more of course but there are issues all over.

I think Spain are doing well, they have good take-up too. It worries me more with France where the percentage actually taking up is so low.

BTW, if anyone would like to see a lot of cock-ups on roll-out, see Japan, who have had many millions of doses hanging around for a month and still struggling with basic logistics while cases rise.

The take-up isn't low in France MRex. Where did you get that from? It isn't as high as the UK but the target of 30m is on track to be achieved two weeks early. Do you look at this site?
covidtracker.fr/
The UK media are a completely unreliable source. They have no clue.

Walkaround
I found this
www.revmed.ch/revue-medicale-suisse/2021/revue-medicale-suisse-734/reponses-immunes-a-une-dose-de-vaccin-administree-apres-un-covid
plus a quick Google found a link to similar research in Los Angeles.