Will employers be allowed to force us back to unventilated offices?

[feelingcold3]

My employer seems to think everything will be back to normal and we can all come back from 21st June.

I am concerned because our office has no opening windows. At the moment I am doing half working from home half office so we are socially distanced, but if we are all back every day I will be working closely next to people with no ventilation.

Is my employer being reasonable

To say I would use this as an excuse to not go back into an office i did not feel safe is quite honestly a ridiculous statement. I haven’t seen any family or friends throughout, yet I should sit in an unventilated office for hours a day sat next to others.

I'm not talking about you, but without doubt there are people using 'safety' as an excuse to stay WFH just because they don't want to get up early and commute.

Sorry but you just come across as bitter that others have in your eyes had an easy ride working from home when that really isn’t the case for most people I know.

Sorry but I've been working from home for the past year myself.

This thread is like an awful race to the bottom.

I'm with you OP, I think if you CAN WFH you should reasonably be able to do so until 2 weeks after your 2nd vaccination. For me that would be end of August.

After everything I have sacrificed over the past year to keep others safe I feel I deserve to keep my risk of long Covid as low as possible.

After everything I have sacrificed over the past year to keep others safe I feel I deserve to keep my risk of long Covid as low as possible.

The system could hardly work on ‘deserving’, could it? We’d have no staff in hospitals.

No opening windows isnt the same as no ventilation. You must have mechanical ventilation?

@BraveBraveMouse

This thread is like an awful race to the bottom.

I'm with you OP, I think if you CAN WFH you should reasonably be able to do so until 2 weeks after your 2nd vaccination. For me that would be end of August.

After everything I have sacrificed over the past year to keep others safe I feel I deserve to keep my risk of long Covid as low as possible.

The healthcare workers and teachers don't get that privilege though and I'm pretty sure they've sacrificed more than anyone WFH has.

The healthcare workers and teachers don't get that privilege though and I'm pretty sure they've sacrificed more than anyone WFH has

Exactly.

Doesn’t matter which random thinks they are reasonable or not. The question is can they legally make you come back and the answer is one hundred percent absolutely. Can you refuse, one hundred percent absolutely. Its called resignation.

@Waxonwaxoff0 As a teacher, it’s lovely to feel that appreciation but there have been so many other jobs that can not wfh too - as you know as you’re one of them! I have my food shopping delivered every week (not a pandemic thing, have done that for the last 10 years). It’s pretty galling to hear people moan about ‘safety’ when you read between the lines it’s all about comfort.

[quote motherrunner]@Waxonwaxoff0 As a teacher, it’s lovely to feel that appreciation but there have been so many other jobs that can not wfh too - as you know as you’re one of them! I have my food shopping delivered every week (not a pandemic thing, have done that for the last 10 years). It’s pretty galling to hear people moan about ‘safety’ when you read between the lines it’s all about comfort.[/quote]
Absolutely, I wouldn't want to put myself in the same category as a teacher though as although I can't WFH I'm not educating the next generation which is far more important! I have no issue with people WFH if they can but dressing it up as wanting to do it for "safety" irritates me, just say you don't want to go back to commuting!

Bur if your employer doesn't want you to work from home and doesn't feel your team/department is as effective with people working from home, then you can't say you can work from home. Your job with your employer doesn't allow it.

Have you looked what other jobs are available in your area for your industry? If you had another job offer on the table, you could probably negotiate.

If you are unable to find anything else suitable, that probably tells you more about how much bargaining power you feasibly have.

@Waxonwaxoff0 People shouldn’t put themselves down in their contribution to society. For instance my bins have been emptied every week, including my recycling and garden waste. Why should a certain sector of society be less worthy than another? It made me roll my eyes when someone upthread said that they were basically saving the environment by reducing commuting. Yeah, defo thinking about the world and not the extra hour in bed.

I’m reading this a lot on MN. People not wanting to go back to the office as they don’t feel safe. But are happy to book holidays abroad and want to get back to normal except don’t want to get back to the office.

Having worked a mix of home and office pre covid I can't wait to be asked back to the office as long as I don't need to SD or wear a mask.

I think a lot of resistance to going back is a combination of many things. I also think having 'covid secure' measures is contributing to this. Covid secure doesn't mean you can or can't get covid but people have had it pushed down their necks so when they are being asked to go back to normal they think it's dangerous and as MN has shown a lot of people can't assess risk hence thinking office as dangerous and shopping as safe.

I used to have an office with no windows, building controls insisted I install a heat recovery unit to pump in fresh air, before they signed it off.

I think this is legal from your employer and if they are insisting there may not be much you can do about it (I am no expert). That doesn't mean they are being reasonable though, that would depend on their reasons for wanting people back in. I don't think this will all be over by 21st June by a long stretch so it seems reasonable to take as much care as possible until everyone that wants to be is fully vaccinated (I know and appreciate some people have been more exposed than others in their work, but keeping community transmission low helps everyone)
There should be a risk assessment and it should include something about ventilation.
Are you in a union? If not join one, they should be able to advise you.
We do have one window that opens in our office and employer has got a Co2 monitor on order - I think they cost about £90. Like you, we're back but not full occupancy and not expecting to be for some time.
On a practical note these are the things you can do as well as asking for the risk assessment/joining a union:
Get vaccinated when you're able to.
Also ask your employer to encourage staff to do the asymptomatic testing twice a week.
Wear a mask in the office (get a decent one FFP2 or N95).
Make sure you're as productive as possible from home which will strengthen your case for working from home for part of the week (I am working better from home, there are far less distractions and I find I can get much more done).
Good luck

@Waxonwaxoff0 I didn't suggest it was unsafe. I don't think it is unsafe. I was responding to the claim that wfh permanently is untenable, when for the past year people have been doing so and it's been fine. Why can't it continue, if it's been tenable for over a year? What makes it suddenly less so? Many companies obviously agree, and have ended/not renewed leases on office space.

Yes it's convenient. But not for the reasons people here seem to imagine. DH has been working 12 hour days (key worker, benefits related so really busy this year). He doesn't leave his desk at all during the day apart from lunch and a couple of breaks, same as if he was in the office. The difference is, when he has a break/lunch he can actually do something he wants to do rather than sit in an office or go for a pointless walk around and out of town business park. And he's not wasting an hour at each end of the working day, either. And no, he's not in his dressing gown (too many Teams meetings/customer face to face meetings) and he's not fannying about when he should be working.

People have this notion that people who wfh are fitting a little bit of work in between baking cakes, watching daytime TV and having a sleep. Utter tosh. DH's boss would soon know if he was taking the piss. I'm genuinely sorry if your job means you can't work from home but there's no need to be unpleasant to those who can.

[quote TheVampiresWife]@Waxonwaxoff0 I didn't suggest it was unsafe. I don't think it is unsafe. I was responding to the claim that wfh permanently is untenable, when for the past year people have been doing so and it's been fine. Why can't it continue, if it's been tenable for over a year? What makes it suddenly less so? Many companies obviously agree, and have ended/not renewed leases on office space.

Yes it's convenient. But not for the reasons people here seem to imagine. DH has been working 12 hour days (key worker, benefits related so really busy this year). He doesn't leave his desk at all during the day apart from lunch and a couple of breaks, same as if he was in the office. The difference is, when he has a break/lunch he can actually do something he wants to do rather than sit in an office or go for a pointless walk around and out of town business park. And he's not wasting an hour at each end of the working day, either. And no, he's not in his dressing gown (too many Teams meetings/customer face to face meetings) and he's not fannying about when he should be working.

People have this notion that people who wfh are fitting a little bit of work in between baking cakes, watching daytime TV and having a sleep. Utter tosh. DH's boss would soon know if he was taking the piss. I'm genuinely sorry if your job means you can't work from home but there's no need to be unpleasant to those who can.[/quote]
I'm not being unpleasant, I don't want to work from home! I'd hate it. Not everyone wants to work from home. I'm just rolling my eyes at the people who don't want to go back to work because it's "unsafe" but are happy for others to take that supposed risk.

@Waxonwaxoff0 sorry I didn't mean you were being unpleasant! Others on here are though (not just on this thread). I totally hear what you're saying - claiming it's unsafe now when the majority are vaccinated and cases are so low, while others have worked through the deadliest parts of the pandemic, is tone deaf. I like having DH around and the extra £150 we're saving on fares and he likes the extra time to himself, nothing about being 'unsafe'.

Still reckon if it's been tenable for 14 months there's no reason from an employer's POV why it can't continue to be so however!

"I've been working out of the home and I'm not scared of catching Covid at all, that's why I think some people are being precious. Most of us working out of the home haven't had time to worry as we have no choice, we are just getting on with"

Exactly this.

(Also stop sending messages with "stay safe" at the end - does this drive anyone else mad?)

[quote TheVampiresWife]@Waxonwaxoff0 sorry I didn't mean you were being unpleasant! Others on here are though (not just on this thread). I totally hear what you're saying - claiming it's unsafe now when the majority are vaccinated and cases are so low, while others have worked through the deadliest parts of the pandemic, is tone deaf. I like having DH around and the extra £150 we're saving on fares and he likes the extra time to himself, nothing about being 'unsafe'.

Still reckon if it's been tenable for 14 months there's no reason from an employer's POV why it can't continue to be so however![/quote]
I agree, I have no issues with people WFH but I think people just need to be honest about the reasons they want to continue doing so, not waffle on about safety and how they're doing those of us who can't WFH a favour by staying home. Just say it's more convenient, that's fine.

Yes. At some point social distancing and everything else will go, and people will need to adjust to that. You can see people adjusting already on public transport.

If restrictions are lifted on 21 June then so be it! You have been fortunate to have been able to work from home throughout tbh.

One reason why some people should not be going back to the office yet, is to give space in the office for those who have difficulty working from home. Those with limited space, those in controlling or worse relationships, with noisy neighbours, for example.

It also should not be a five day a week or nothing.

No OP? Where have you gone. I'm sure MN start controversial threads just to up the hits on the page and improve advertising revenue.

Anyway now I'm here
Obviously they can. Did you think you were going to get to enforce open windows on all your colleagues during a British autumn and winter? Surely you mean it’s going back full time that you’re annoyed about, I don’t believe for a second that anyone really wants to go back but sit with the windows open

Schools have done this too!

Still reckon if it's been tenable for 14 months there's no reason from an employer's POV why it can't continue to be so however!

Of course, but surely the key word is 'if'?

Just because someone insists they've been 'so much more productive' WFH, doesn't mean they have been. If an employer feels there has been a drop in work quality, they are well within their rights to expect employees to return to the office. Just as workers are well within their rights to seek another job if they consider this unreasonable.

I have been amongst a skeleton staff in the office throughout. Many of my colleagues don’t want to stop WFH as they say they can do this just as well. This is only because the staff members who have been in the office have been doing the work they can’t do from home for them. It has been really busy and I have had to do work for my colleagues who have now been vaccinated but can’t be bothered to get back into the office as well as all my own work and I have had enough of it I have heard reasons for not coming in as they would have to get up earlier and they like being able to fit household chores in during the day. Frankly I think there has been a lot of piss taking going on and the sooner people get back to work the better!