I refused the AZ vaccine, now being judged for it

[cosmoswithcovids]

My husband's friend is a Dr, he called yesterday to tell my DH they had spare vaccine and to come over if we wanted one (DH is 33, I'm 30).

We got there and he told us it was AZ, I said I wanted to wait until I was offered the alternative that under 40s are advised to have. My DH looked at me as though I had two heads.

We joined them for drinks at the pub last night where Dr and a couple of other friends were discussing anti-vaxers and I was referenced as one of them. I did reiterate that I'm very keen to be vaccinated but not with AZ. It was then mansplained to me that discrediting the AZ jab (which they've all had and are fiiiiiiiiiiine) was the behaviour of an anti vaxer. I was just meant to feel a bit like an uneducated idiot (I'm not, I'm a solicitor, I'm quite bright) and although my husband says he understood why I didn't want it, the risk is "theoretical" (is it?!)
For the sake of another couple of weeks, I'd rather just wait and have the one which is safer! I'm just feeling a bit rubbish about it all really, I felt quite bounced into it when we got there and it was quite a stress for me having to justify why I didn't want it once we arrived.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-56665396

Check the link out OP. It explains the risk and benefit at different ages. But this is pre Indian variant so may have changed a bit. I think you were fine to wait for Pfizer.

OP, I have read all your posts here, (but I gave up on the others after a while as so many seemed to be talking through their posteriors). I am also fed up with so many of them calling you an anti-vaxer.
Anti-vaxers are people who are against ALL vaccines, not a particular one vaccine.
But what is making me most cross is that no-one seems to be picking up that a GP (friend or not), REFERENCED you on your evening in the pub, in his capacity as a GP, and it doesn't matter one jot that he is not your GP, he approached you and your husband about having a Covid jab, and you told him (in his capacity as a GP), that you would not have the AZ jab - once you were eventually told which one it would be - therefore he is NOT allowed to discuss anything he knows about you through his status as a GP. He has sworn an oath not to, he could potentially lose his job over this - he won't, but technically he could. So this has already taught us two things about him, he is both unprofessional and an idiot, I would not want him as my GP.
OP, please stop admitting that you were wrong not to ask your husband which jab it would be (who was the one on the phone actually talking to this "friend") - you were not wrong, you were given scant information in a subject that you had to make a very quick decision on. As it IS the Governments guidelines that your age group should NOT be offered the AZ jab, then of course, you quite rightly assumed that it would not be the AZ you were being offered. He apparently did not tell either of you that it would be the AZ jab before you got there (again very unprofessional in the circumstanes), possibly in the hope of guilt tripping you into having it - but I hope that he isn't that bad.
Without the initial knowledge in your opening OP, I still thought what an unprofessional idiot he is, and that you were right to refuse the drug when you were told which one it would be. Now that you have told us about your relatively recent blood clot, you clearly made the only sensible choice that you could, in fact, I wouldn't even call it a choice, it was a necessity.
All the pp on here who thought you should know about all the statistics imvolved in the different Covid 19 vaccines, and in fact all the risks involved in anything you might do in your daily life - from crossing a road, to climbing a couple of steps on a kithen stool "ladder", must lead very stressful lives, and I feel sorry for them that they feel the need to spend so much of their lives looking up statistics. You were and are going by WELL publicised Government guidelines, you were and are NOT wrong to do so! Good luck in getting your suitable Covid vaccine very soon, and may I suggest that you have a particular "friend" that does not deserve that title.
I have said all this as a woman in her 60s, who until very recently has had to Shield for nearly over a year, and who feels very grateful to have received both of my AZ jabs.

How do you know the alternative won't cause the same issues? I mean has it been tried on a large enough group to know for sure? Do you have a special crystal ball?
There are people desperate to get a jab any jab and your being personally invited to a surgery then start being choosy. I agree it's your right to not have it but are you expecting sympathy on here?
Do you take the pill and have you flown long haul? Both these can cause clots too.

@pinkmagnolias

TableFlowerss The similarity is they are both clots. However, they are two different types of clots. One is treatable with blood thinners, one isn't. That is a huge difference.

The clots are incomparable other than saying than saying they are both clots.

Indeed, government health officials are investigating a type of blood clot called a cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) among the J&J recipients. These clots formed in the draining veins of the brain, combined with a low platelet count, essentially causing a stroke. Hormonal birth control pills, on the other hand, raise the risk of blood clots in the leg that can break off and travel to the lung, causing a pulmonary embolism that blocks blood flow to part of the lung. The latter clots can be treated with anticoagulants, while the J&J clots cannot

The clots are treatable, the issue is not using heparin. The test and treatment protocol was put out in March for Astrazeneca. I would presume that will work fine for Janssen J&J too.

It is important to note that untreated DVT has a high risk of death. 5-12 women per 10,000 using the pill will have a clotting event and approximately 1% of them will die (3 to 10 per million). While death is rarer per incidence, the number of deaths are similar. It's so rare in each case that it isn't worth fretting about unless you have specific risk factors, but everyone should be alert to symptoms and serk medical attention quickly for any swelling or unusual pain because that will give you a good chance of survival. Delay in receiving treatment for clots is the main factor for death for all types of clot. Some people will have small clots that can resolve themselves, but the a risk of pulmonary embolism leading to death means it isn't worth waiting, rapid treatment is important.
This is a nice balanced article about the very low risks from the contraceptive pill: www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38265865.amp.

@ViewsAreMine

The inequality of the vaccine distribution is not caused by one person in the UK not taking up the offer of a vaccine not recommended for her age group by the JCVI.

No mention of inequality in my post. Of course the OP is not to blame. However, it's definitely not reasonable to expect empathy /understanding when others don't even have the luxury of this kind of phone call or worse still be able to turn it down.

And to those around the world suffering starvation, the idea of turning down a steak and kidney pie because you'd rather not eat meat must be unconscionable. What's your point?

@HeartvsBrain

OP, I have read all your posts here, (but I gave up on the others after a while as so many seemed to be talking through their posteriors). I am also fed up with so many of them calling you an anti-vaxer. Anti-vaxers are people who are against ALL vaccines, not a particular one vaccine. But what is making me most cross is that no-one seems to be picking up that a GP (friend or not), REFERENCED you on your evening in the pub, in his capacity as a GP, and it doesn't matter one jot that he is not your GP, he approached you and your husband about having a Covid jab, and you told him (in his capacity as a GP), that you would not have the AZ jab - once you were eventually told which one it would be - therefore he is NOT allowed to discuss anything he knows about you through his status as a GP. He has sworn an oath not to, he could potentially lose his job over this - he won't, but technically he could. So this has already taught us two things about him, he is both unprofessional and an idiot, I would not want him as my GP. OP, please stop admitting that you were wrong not to ask your husband which jab it would be (who was the one on the phone actually talking to this "friend") - you were not wrong, you were given scant information in a subject that you had to make a very quick decision on. As it IS the Governments guidelines that your age group should NOT be offered the AZ jab, then of course, you quite rightly assumed that it would not be the AZ you were being offered. He apparently did not tell either of you that it would be the AZ jab before you got there (again very unprofessional in the circumstanes), possibly in the hope of guilt tripping you into having it - but I hope that he isn't that bad. Without the initial knowledge in your opening OP, I still thought what an unprofessional idiot he is, and that you were right to refuse the drug when you were told which one it would be. Now that you have told us about your relatively recent blood clot, you clearly made the only sensible choice that you could, in fact, I wouldn't even call it a choice, it was a necessity. All the pp on here who thought you should know about all the statistics imvolved in the different Covid 19 vaccines, and in fact all the risks involved in anything you might do in your daily life - from crossing a road, to climbing a couple of steps on a kithen stool "ladder", must lead very stressful lives, and I feel sorry for them that they feel the need to spend so much of their lives looking up statistics. You were and are going by WELL publicised Government guidelines, you were and are NOT wrong to do so! Good luck in getting your suitable Covid vaccine very soon, and may I suggest that you have a particular "friend" that does not deserve that title. I have said all this as a woman in her 60s, who until very recently has had to Shield for nearly over a year, and who feels very grateful to have received both of my AZ jabs.

Need a "post of the day" button!!

Absolutely nailed it.

@MRex
The issue for me is that no one gives a shit if a women choses to use the pill and accepts the associated risks. Ditto flying. However, mention that you are not comfortable with the AZ vaccine and you are immediately labelled as a selfish, anti-vaxxer who doesn't understand the risks. This is unacceptable bullying and coercion. I understand the risks fully, they may be small but they are significant enough for me to not want to AZ. That is my right to chose.

You dismiss the long term affects of the clots associated with AZ, these are essentially strokes which people may well never fully recover from and in that sense are potentially life changing if not fatal. Frankly I hope that AZ is dropped and money and efforts but into the more effective vaccines with fewer side effects.

@NotSoLongGoodbye - I don't "dismiss" anything, nor do I call people "selfish" for making their own choices as long as they aren't wasting appointments. Some people posted factually inaccurate things, I replied with some facts. Those facts can be taken however people choose to view them, but they are just correcting factually incorrect statements about recovery potential and about comparative risks. If you wish to criticise people making judgements of others unreasonably, then it would make more sense if you pick the posters who actually say those things.

Given the details re AZ & your age (is there a possibility of you wanting children ....?) I think you were being sensible. Perhaps you should have dropped a glass on the floor to quieten them all down, then as you've got their attention, spoken up and said you do want the vaccine, but not the AZ and why. I've had the AZ, both jabs & no effects, but then I'm older than you & no chance of having more kids.

I wouldn't have AZ as a healthy young woman. A friend of a friend (Stephanie Dubois) died on Saturday because of AZ. She was completely healthy before with a long life ahead of her, very low chance of becoming seriously ill with covid and now she's dead because she did the right thing and got the jab. Fuck that.
We know the risks now and have decided that under 40s shouldn't be having it. I've had Pfizer.

[quote NotSoLongGoodbye]@MRex
The issue for me is that no one gives a shit if a women choses to use the pill and accepts the associated risks. Ditto flying. However, mention that you are not comfortable with the AZ vaccine and you are immediately labelled as a selfish, anti-vaxxer who doesn't understand the risks. This is unacceptable bullying and coercion. I understand the risks fully, they may be small but they are significant enough for me to not want to AZ. That is my right to chose.

You dismiss the long term affects of the clots associated with AZ, these are essentially strokes which people may well never fully recover from and in that sense are potentially life changing if not fatal. Frankly I hope that AZ is dropped and money and efforts but into the more effective vaccines with fewer side effects.[/quote]
AZ will not get dropped. The chance of a clot (not dying) is 1 in 100 000. There has been around 280 cases of clots in the UK of which around 42 have died.
They are not going to give it to the under 40s as a safety measure. They have no reason to withdraw it.

@Torvean your stats are out of date. Up to 12th May (new figures out tomorrow) there have been 309 cases and 56 deaths.

Stephanie Dubois fell into a coma before she sadly died so we do not know what the health status of the remaining 253 people are nor their chances of a full recovery.

Morning all.
Received my text this morning,booked for lunch time, Pfizer vaccine according to the booking link.

Thank you for everyone for all of your thoughts and opinions -given I've been offered an alternative less than a week after posting about this, I'm feeling very lucky.

Excellent @cosmoswithcovid well done for standing your ground and waiting

@AppleJane

Excellent *@cosmoswithcovid* well done for standing your ground and waiting

👍🏻👍🏻

[quote AppleJane]@Torvean your stats are out of date. Up to 12th May (new figures out tomorrow) there have been 309 cases and 56 deaths.

Stephanie Dubois fell into a coma before she sadly died so we do not know what the health status of the remaining 253 people are nor their chances of a full recovery. [/quote]
Still wouldn't change the risk ration.
Nor a case to stop AZ.

Still wouldn't change the risk ration.

We can't calculate true risk for those under 50 because they have not released the figure of AZ doses given to those specific age groups to compare to the blood clots which are being experienced more so by those younger ages.

apple why isn’t there more call for them to do so. It’s very odd. People say “ask your GP” but no one can assess the data

Exactly @Roonerspismed it's bewildering. It's natural for people to want to know the risks specifically for their age and sex.

If a biological man wanted to know the odds of him developing prostrate cancer it wouldn't be helpful to give him a lump sum of population stats that includes biological women. We need all the relevant data, not just a generic total. Only then can we make an informed choice.

And to those around the world suffering starvation, the idea of turning down a steak and kidney pie because you'd rather not eat meat must be unconscionable. What's your point?

So I understand you correctly. You're comparing the benefits of a life-saving vaccine with the momentary pleasure derived from a pie?

Your reasoning only solidifies how far removed you are from what "real problems are". .

@ViewsAreMine I read that comment in a totally different way so not sure now exactly what they meant.

I thought it was in response to someone saying that because someone in another country doesn't have a vaccine then people here should have AZ. Which could then be compared to saying that because someone somewhere is starving, a vegan should be grateful for a meat pie.

Life just doesn't work like that else we'd all give away all our money, possessions blah blah.

@AppleJane

Still wouldn't change the risk ration.

We can't calculate true risk for those under 50 because they have not released the figure of AZ doses given to those specific age groups to compare to the blood clots which are being experienced more so by those younger ages.

They're not going to give it to the over 40s now. So there's not much need to produce a ratio.

So there's not much need to produce a ratio.

There is still a lot of concern for people waiting for their second dose whose minds could be put at rest. But in some countries they are mixing vaccines for those who have already received one dose so it's an ever changing situation (apart from the governments who don't want to talk about the elephant in the room)

They're not going to give it to the over 40s now

Do you have a source for that? There are still women on MN over 40 who are struggling to find an alternative. Apparently it's especially difficult in Scotland.

The FT had an article today saying they may have found the problem with AZ and think they can find the solution for it too.

Definitely hold off getting a second vaccine for the time being!

Once inside the cell nucleus, certain parts of the spike protein splice, or split apart, creating mutant versions, which are unable to bind to the cell membrane where important immunisation takes place. The floating mutant proteins are instead secreted by cells into the body, triggering blood clots in roughly one in 100,000 people, according to Marschalek’s theory.

In contrast, mRNA-based vaccines, such as the jabs developed by BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna, deliver the spike’s genetic material to the cell fluid and it never enters the nucleus.
“When these . . . virus genes are in the nucleus they can create some problems,” Marschalek told the Financial Times.