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Original poster

I refused the AZ vaccine, now being judged for it

492 replies

cosmoswithcovids · 21/05/2021 07:24

My husband's friend is a Dr, he called yesterday to tell my DH they had spare vaccine and to come over if we wanted one (DH is 33, I'm 30).

We got there and he told us it was AZ, I said I wanted to wait until I was offered the alternative that under 40s are advised to have. My DH looked at me as though I had two heads.

We joined them for drinks at the pub last night where Dr and a couple of other friends were discussing anti-vaxers and I was referenced as one of them. I did reiterate that I'm very keen to be vaccinated but not with AZ. It was then mansplained to me that discrediting the AZ jab (which they've all had and are fiiiiiiiiiiine) was the behaviour of an anti vaxer. I was just meant to feel a bit like an uneducated idiot (I'm not, I'm a solicitor, I'm quite bright) and although my husband says he understood why I didn't want it, the risk is "theoretical" (is it?!)
For the sake of another couple of weeks, I'd rather just wait and have the one which is safer! I'm just feeling a bit rubbish about it all really, I felt quite bounced into it when we got there and it was quite a stress for me having to justify why I didn't want it once we arrived.

OP posts:
Lweji · 24/05/2021 17:44

In any case, what I wrote should be common knowledge among people with some grasp of biology. It is basic stuff.

AnnieSnap · 24/05/2021 18:36

@Lweji

Thank you for sharing this. It’s very interesting. Are you by chance, a virologist? Biologist. Although my field is not virology, it covers a range of infectious diseases, and sometimes viruses too.
Yes of course. Do you know much about the situation with AZ and the South African variant? It was believed last year that it was resistant to AZ, but more research was required. I can’t find anything up-to-date and we are booked to go to South Africa at the end of October (having been pushed forward from May ‘20, then October ‘20). I’m aware our Government are considering boosters with a different vaccine (whichever one we have had) in the Autumn. With our luck re holidays (don’t we all feel the same?), we’ll be offered it for the first week of November! 🙄
linsey2581 · 24/05/2021 18:51

Both my children aged 17 and 18 have had both jags of AZ and have been fine. My husband and I both had Pfizer as we are NHS workers. Its the media to blame for people refusing the AZ,

nordica · 24/05/2021 19:23

I wish people would stop coming up with the "I/my daughter/sister took AZ and was fine" argument. That's the textbook dismissive response to deny someone else's experience is valid. Of course lots of people are fine, the whole point is that it's like a lottery and some are not as lucky as you.

You might be fine but what about the 56 people who've died in the UK after having one of these blood clots with low platelets after taking the AZ jab? And the other 250 who've survived - although we've not been told how they've been affected, it's likely they've not exactly walked out of hospital and been back to normal.

Grellbunt · 24/05/2021 19:34

Did the people who died from blood clots with low platelets have low platelets to start with? If so, isn't that something you can do a simple test for?

pinkmagnolias · 24/05/2021 19:37

nordica Exactjy.

And don’t forget the non reporting of any AZ side effects at all until Denmark stopped rolling it out!

TableFlowerss · 24/05/2021 19:54

The risk of blood clots is significantly higher on the pill, that’s why they don’t offer it to under 35’s if someone’s had it from 16-36 that’s a long time.

They recon between 3-9 women in every 10,000 develop clots. Not all die of course but if you compare that to about about 250 in 30,000,000, its about 18,000 compared to 250.....

TableFlowerss · 24/05/2021 19:55

over 35’s I mean

pinkmagnolias · 24/05/2021 20:23

The risk of blood clots is significantly higher on the pill

For the zillionith time it’s a different of type of clot. Yawn.

bitheby · 24/05/2021 20:27

@Grellbunt

Did the people who died from blood clots with low platelets have low platelets to start with? If so, isn't that something you can do a simple test for?

No I think it's something to do with try immune response that gets triggered.

I do wonder if the people who developed clots after the vaccine were at higher risk of an extreme response to catching Covid though. Not that that makes it better if they died but that they might have been generally at a higher risk.

ThepastisNotinthepast · 24/05/2021 20:28

@TableFlowerss

The risk of blood clots is significantly higher on the pill, that’s why they don’t offer it to under 35’s if someone’s had it from 16-36 that’s a long time.

They recon between 3-9 women in every 10,000 develop clots. Not all die of course but if you compare that to about about 250 in 30,000,000, its about 18,000 compared to 250.....

It’s a totally different type of clot
Grellbunt · 24/05/2021 20:32

My understanding is that in Germany it - AZ / can be offered to any age group but only after an individual risk assessment with that individual's GP. I'm trying to think what the risk factors might be... cos I can't find any straight info on it. I'd like to know if there's anything I could discuss or do to assess my risk of taking this vaccine that the NHS is forcing on me.

Lweji · 24/05/2021 20:44

Do you know much about the situation with AZ and the South African variant?

I haven't been following it well enough.
My take on most vaccines, and certainly the AZ, is that, at individual level, we do not know if we are protected. The AZ itself, compared with the Pfizer or Moderna, seems to offer less protection against covid, although (IIRC) about the same in terms of deaths or serious covid.
Furthermore, the whole licencing process and then production and distribution hasn't been handled very well by those responsible. From the mistake in the first Phase III trials that came out, giving various figures to the US agency, to the supply issues to the EU.
It may be cheaper per dose, but considering the difference in efficacy, I'm not sure that's a huge advantage when countries need herd immunity. And it didn't do them any favours that many countries expected supplies that didn't arrive on time and their vaccination programmes got delayed. This issue may have been missed by many in the UK, but it was a big problem for the EU in the winter.
BTW, I have nothing against the AZ vaccine (and I have nothing to do with big or small pharma, or any government). I'm just looking at the figures. The same with Janssen (J&J). Great that it's only one dose, but efficacy is much lower than the mRNA ones after the second doses.

But, answering your question, I would be taking the usual precautions to avoid infection, anyway, regardless of any variant. Particularly if I was travelling. Any new variants may arise at any time and affect you before they are even detected.
I'd relax with very low transmission rates (and cases), good monitoring (say, with mass testing), and high vaccine coverage in the population.

ViewsAreMine · 24/05/2021 22:11

Looking through the lens of a vulnerable thirty year old in an African country who has at least 2/3 year wait to get vaccinated - you're a cruel anti-vaxxer.

nordica · 24/05/2021 22:25

@ViewsAreMine

Looking through the lens of a vulnerable thirty year old in an African country who has at least 2/3 year wait to get vaccinated - you're a cruel anti-vaxxer.
You should be looking towards the US - they have tens of millions of doses of the vaccines stockpiled and they're planning to share 10% with other countries by July. Meanwhile they're vaccinating teenagers. Why haven't they been sharing them months ago? Especially AZ which has never even been approved in the US.

The inequality of the vaccine distribution is not caused by one person in the UK not taking up the offer of a vaccine not recommended for her age group by the JCVI.

ViewsAreMine · 24/05/2021 22:43

The inequality of the vaccine distribution is not caused by one person in the UK not taking up the offer of a vaccine not recommended for her age group by the JCVI.

No mention of inequality in my post. Of course the OP is not to blame. However, it's definitely not reasonable to expect empathy /understanding when others don't even have the luxury of this kind of phone call or worse still be able to turn it down.

Theonlyoneiknow · 24/05/2021 23:08

@Lweji

not sure I would want mRNA in me either to be honest. Grin All of your cells are producing mRNA right now in order to function. It carries the information from DNA to make proteins that are essential for cell life, including to maintain its structure, and for pretty much every chemical reaction, to take substances in and out of the cells, and to, gasp, even fight disease.

It is temporary and is destroyed in a fairly short time, without integrating in the genome, due to its structure. It basically has signals at the start and end that mark it as mRNA.

The AZ vaccine isn't even based on mRNA, the Pfizer is, which the OP is happy to take.

The AZ is based on a viral carrier, which is an adenovirus, and carries DNA, although it will result in mRNA production using the cell machinery, which routinely produces large numbers of mRNA anyway... and quite often of various viruses that infect us naturally too. Of any virus that infect us, really, because they all need our cell machinery to replicate and produce new proteins to make new viral particles.

Thank you for this :)
AnnieSnap · 24/05/2021 23:16

@Lweji

Do you know much about the situation with AZ and the South African variant?

I haven't been following it well enough.
My take on most vaccines, and certainly the AZ, is that, at individual level, we do not know if we are protected. The AZ itself, compared with the Pfizer or Moderna, seems to offer less protection against covid, although (IIRC) about the same in terms of deaths or serious covid.
Furthermore, the whole licencing process and then production and distribution hasn't been handled very well by those responsible. From the mistake in the first Phase III trials that came out, giving various figures to the US agency, to the supply issues to the EU.
It may be cheaper per dose, but considering the difference in efficacy, I'm not sure that's a huge advantage when countries need herd immunity. And it didn't do them any favours that many countries expected supplies that didn't arrive on time and their vaccination programmes got delayed. This issue may have been missed by many in the UK, but it was a big problem for the EU in the winter.
BTW, I have nothing against the AZ vaccine (and I have nothing to do with big or small pharma, or any government). I'm just looking at the figures. The same with Janssen (J&J). Great that it's only one dose, but efficacy is much lower than the mRNA ones after the second doses.

But, answering your question, I would be taking the usual precautions to avoid infection, anyway, regardless of any variant. Particularly if I was travelling. Any new variants may arise at any time and affect you before they are even detected.
I'd relax with very low transmission rates (and cases), good monitoring (say, with mass testing), and high vaccine coverage in the population.

Thank you for your thoughts. Both DH and I agree that we will continue to take precautions (mask, hands, space) in crowded environments due to the ongoing risk of new variants.
TableFlowerss · 24/05/2021 23:29

@pinkmagnolias

The risk of blood clots is significantly higher on the pill

For the zillionith time it’s a different of type of clot. Yawn.

Yawn all you like hen, but get your facts straight before you carry on on a public Internet forum!!!!

Blood clots are from the pill are significantly higher than those from AZ!

TableFlowerss · 24/05/2021 23:31

To add- no blood clots is ideal!!! So don’t be assuming that the pill ones are ‘better’..... they aren’t! But that’s irrelevant because folk want to have sex..... it’s their choice, no one is ‘forcing’ that?!?!?!?’.... 🙄🙄🙄🙄

pinkmagnolias · 25/05/2021 00:58

TableFlowerss
The similarity is they are both clots. However, they are two different types of clots. One is treatable with blood thinners, one isn't. That is a huge difference.

The clots are incomparable other than saying than saying they are both clots.

Indeed, government health officials are investigating a type of blood clot called a cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) among the J&J recipients. These clots formed in the draining veins of the brain, combined with a low platelet count, essentially causing a stroke. Hormonal birth control pills, on the other hand, raise the risk of blood clots in the leg that can break off and travel to the lung, causing a pulmonary embolism that blocks blood flow to part of the lung. The latter clots can be treated with anticoagulants, while the J&J clots cannot

TableFlowerss · 25/05/2021 01:01

@pinkmagnolias

TableFlowerss The similarity is they are both clots. However, they are two different types of clots. One is treatable with blood thinners, one isn't. That is a huge difference.

The clots are incomparable other than saying than saying they are both clots.

Indeed, government health officials are investigating a type of blood clot called a cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) among the J&J recipients. These clots formed in the draining veins of the brain, combined with a low platelet count, essentially causing a stroke. Hormonal birth control pills, on the other hand, raise the risk of blood clots in the leg that can break off and travel to the lung, causing a pulmonary embolism that blocks blood flow to part of the lung. The latter clots can be treated with anticoagulants, while the J&J clots cannot

So why then do the pill related clots also kill people?
TableFlowerss · 25/05/2021 01:10

To add - they may be different clots but research suggest that the increases risk of a clot is far greater when someone has covid compared to the vaccine.

So the argument might be, well I’ve never had the pill, but you can’t say you’ll never get covid..... no one can know if the will catch it and the risk of blood clotting after you getting it, is greater so...

Torvean · 25/05/2021 05:16

@pinkmagnolias

TableFlowerss The similarity is they are both clots. However, they are two different types of clots. One is treatable with blood thinners, one isn't. That is a huge difference.

The clots are incomparable other than saying than saying they are both clots.

Indeed, government health officials are investigating a type of blood clot called a cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) among the J&J recipients. These clots formed in the draining veins of the brain, combined with a low platelet count, essentially causing a stroke. Hormonal birth control pills, on the other hand, raise the risk of blood clots in the leg that can break off and travel to the lung, causing a pulmonary embolism that blocks blood flow to part of the lung. The latter clots can be treated with anticoagulants, while the J&J clots cannot

I read that they're now not using Janssen in ppl over 40 in Ireland.

That could massively effect if it gets EUA in the UK.

Janssen and Novavax are both submitting for EUA. As novavax can be used on any age group it would be a better choice.

AppleJane · 25/05/2021 06:19

So why then do the pill related clots also kill people?

The fatality rate is extremely low for pill related blood clots. The fatality rate for AZ blood clots is just under 20%.