Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “will be considered” amid rise in blood clots Thread 3

[Whichjab]

New thread as the MRHA report is out today.

Note this is not an anti vaccination thread.

I’m interested to find out what they’ll announce about booster jabs, if they’re planning to use AZ for that as well, and if so for what age group 🤔

The BBC website has a report from Australia today, about people increasingly turning down the AZ jab. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-57549796.amp

Quite rightly the doctor quoted points out even though there's lots of comparisons between the AZ risk and the risks from other things like a lightning strike, people are not comparing it to that, people are comparing it to the risks associated with Pfizer.

I think at this point the only thing that would really help restore confidence in AZ is if the company admitted the issue and were able to pin down the exact cause- and then reformulated the vaccine.

I turned up today for my vaccination (in Scotland ) and was told to get the AZ. I said I didn't want that and would like a Pfizer. The woman told me that because of my age I would have to have astra zenica and I was not allowed to choose what vaccination I received. I said I should be able to choose what I put in my body. She said she would have to mark me as a refusal. I said I am not refusing, I want a vaccine, but not the AZ. Another woman talked to me and gave me the number of the hub and said I should call and talk to the manager in case there were any pfizers left at the end of the day. She also said it is one in a million chance of blood clots and I told her it is one in 50000 and even higher for women. My husband gave me no support at all. I am absolutely so upset. They made me feel like a total shouty mad woman, I am so upset. I know the risks and I know I am being annoying and not doing what everyone else was doing, but watching the young people getting their pfizers and I can't because I am old was upsetting. I can't explain it, the horrible girl kept saying 'because of your age'. what do you mean? I am important just like you! Sorry I am so upset.

I’m sorry, @Tauranga, you absolutely should not have had to go through that. The situation in Scotland sounds so rigid. This should not be a postcode lottery.

Thank you. I feel a bit confused at the moment - not sure what to do really. And I feel really sad.

@Tauranga The people at the vaccination centre (staff/volunteers) are simply following the procedures that they have been given by the Government. It's fine you don't agree with them, but shame on you for being "shouty" at some poor sod just trying to do their job on the frontline.

I didn't shout but I felt like I was, just by not being agreeable and cheerful

@nordica

The BBC website has a report from Australia today, about people increasingly turning down the AZ jab. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-57549796.amp

Quite rightly the doctor quoted points out even though there's lots of comparisons between the AZ risk and the risks from other things like a lightning strike, people are not comparing it to that, people are comparing it to the risks associated with Pfizer.

I think at this point the only thing that would really help restore confidence in AZ is if the company admitted the issue and were able to pin down the exact cause- and then reformulated the vaccine.

Yes @nordica, I think the big issue in all of this is the refusal to accept that there's an issue. This leads to anyone reluctant to take the vaccine, which causes VITT seemingly indiscriminately, being viewed as a conspiracy theorist, anti-vaxxer or paranoid. The risk is real and we should all have the choice not to take it.

@Tauranga it's very natural to be upset if you are trying to make a decision that is safe for you and don't get any support. I had upset discussions with surgery receptionists, the GP and the vaccine hotline. I appreciate they have their own rules and limitations and none of this is under their control, but it's very hard to be at the end where you want to be heard and maybe talk about options and be told there are none. Especially whilst being bombarded by media and everybody else to 'just get vaccinated'

I was told locally they are not allowed to give Pfizer to 40+ unless there is a 'physical' reason like allergy. Because it's in short supply and that is what the Scottish government has said. I found this on a surgery website (not my own): "Patients aged 40+ will only be offered the Astra Zeneca vaccine and there will not be an option to receive the Pfizer vaccine instead. This has been decreed by the Scottish Government and we have to follow this guidance. Therefore, if you are aged 40 and over and decline the Astra Zeneca vaccine you will be declining the vaccine completely. "

This matches what my surgery says and the vaccine hotline told me if it's my GP surgery in charge of vaccinations then this is who I need to talk to. However, my surgery has also marked me as a 'refusal/wants no further contact re vaccine' which is of course not true but I'm off the 'needs to be talked to list'. So we are going round in circles due to rules and regulations. My husband neither wants to talk or listen either. None of this helps you but I just want you to know your experience is not just you, there are others in that situation and I'm not sure where the way out is.

Somebody mentioned maybe when all adults are vaccinated twice and they are desperate to persuade the rest there is more flexibility, and ways to accommodate individuals, but by then if they are doing boosters and Pfizer remains in short supply, then quite possibly that won't happen.

@nordica thanks for sharing that article about Australia. I think the issue mentioned in the article about comparing risks not to rare nature events like a lightning strike but the risk with another vaccine is a good one. It's certainly how my brain works.

I hear you. I don’t want the vaccine but if they are so desperate for me to have it, let me choose. Otherwise fuck of to be honest.

What’s happening with Novavax? If that gets approved might be an option if there’s short supply of Pfizer later this year?

Rumour is that Novavax will be approved in the U.K. some time next month. Likely to be used in boosters. Might be an option for those willing to wait it out.

The situation in Scotland is dreadful, especially given that most over 40s in other parts of the U.K. can manage an alternative. I’ve seen so many ads recently for Pfizer walk ins open to anyone over 18 in London.

@Tauranga I’m so sorry. I’m not surprised you feel so upset. The situation in Scotland is awful. I hugely sympathise and I’m sorry there are even more limited options in Scotland.

I’m in my 30s and have had my first dose and just spoke to my GP about my second. He was very understanding and well informed too. He seemed to completely understand my concerns and didn’t dismiss them at all. I got the impression he still thinks things could change re mixing and that we could see second dose cases increase. However his hands are tied and therefore my only options are AZ as a second dose or nothing. He didn’t even try to persuade me that a second dose is the best option he just advised that only I can make that choice. Also feeling very upset and backed into a corner.

@Tauranga, that sounds appalling and I can totally see why you'd get upset. When people are telling you to just get in with it, or worse, that there's no risk, it can make you feel you're going mad.

@Rainbowsandstorms, I'm sorry you didn't get anywhere with your GP, although at least he sounds sympathetic. I think that's the thing for me, too many people dismissing our fears. In a way, I'd prefer to hear that our concerns are valid, but at the moment there's nothing to be done.

@IndigoC

Rumour is that Novavax will be approved in the U.K. some time next month. Likely to be used in boosters. Might be an option for those willing to wait it out.

The situation in Scotland is dreadful, especially given that most over 40s in other parts of the U.K. can manage an alternative. I’ve seen so many ads recently for Pfizer walk ins open to anyone over 18 in London.

That's part of the reason it is so difficult for us to get hold of Pfizer.

I know it’s not this straightforward for many, but are those of you in Scotland theoretically able to travel to England for a walk-in Pfizer?

I wondered about that but assumed they'd turn me away based on my address? Would be good to know actually.

I was just thinking the same re Scotland. Could you come up with a story re being based in England for a short while even though your official address is in Scotland. I would imagine they’d be far less picky at a walk in centre.

For those in Scotland (like me) I had a very useful conversation with the vaccine helpline late April. Bottom line was is that you are quite within your rights to turn up to an appointment and then decide not to go ahead depending on what is available on the day (especially as they cannot tell you in advance what you will be offered). Best thing to say is that you want to consider it further and you should not be marked as a vaccine refuser. You can take as long as you want to think about what to do and if you want another appointment ring the helpline to reschedule. It is not a one time only chance to get vaccinated. I was told that it might be difficult to do online as system might show you having an appointment even if you then decided not to go ahead. The person I spoke to was extremely helpful and made it quite clear it is a personal decision about whether or not to get vaccinated and when. I was extremely lucky and got pfizer - place I got sent had been doing AZ until 2 days before my appointment - otherwise I would've walked out without being vaccinated. It was extremely stressful nevertheless because generally people are dismissive of your concerns because it's such a tiny risk

Israel have been doing well having used Pfizer, but I see the Delta is creeping in with outbreaks starting in schools. Israel are in the process of vaccinating the children aged 12 upwards. It seems they believe this is the only way to achieve herd immunity/close to herd immunity.
I am getting the impression that the JCVI here in the UK is not keen on the idea of vaccinating children. I do get that, but surely if we don't vaccinate children, the virus will evolve amongst the children, and we will forever have a significant Covid problem?

Why don’t we just let children get it naturally? I think we are a quarter of the way there already

My eldest has a heart issue which is mild and I’m far more worried about the effects if the Pfizer vaccine than covid. I will bet my last pound that natural immunity lasts longer and is more effective than any of the current vaccines

penni the Israel story you are referencing had significant spread among fully vaccinated teachers. Eradication via vaccination looks like chasing shadows.

Tend to agree with Rooners.

According to ONS almost 100% of those eligible for AZ have already had it. The outstanding 2nd dose cohort is fast dwindling. In this context the Scottish position makes little sense. More likely due to rigid bureaucracy than supply issues.

Just been reading a bit more about Israel, so the fully vaccinated teachers have been contracting the Delta variant, so that would be Pfizer the Delta is breaking through - still no mention of serious illness thankfully.
I can't see an end to all this in my lifetime.
Are those magical drugs that Boris said were coming in the Autumn ever going to appear? I do hope so, otherwise people, possibly myself, who cannot become fully vaccinated, could be in their own 'individual lockdowns' forever.

@Roonerspismed

Why don’t we just let children get it naturally? I think we are a quarter of the way there already

My eldest has a heart issue which is mild and I’m far more worried about the effects if the Pfizer vaccine than covid. I will bet my last pound that natural immunity lasts longer and is more effective than any of the current vaccines

Because even mild cases risk long-term multi-organ damage:

twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1407065932845965316?s=21

From Professor Christina Pagel, Director of the Operational Clinical Research Unit, UCL.