No more masks in classrooms - hurray!

[TeddingtonTrashbag]

Hurray!
I am a secondary teacher and just hope it really happens.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/06/exclusive-end-masks-classroom-boris-johnson-defies-unions/

I think the assumption from some of the teachers on this thread is that masks make a very significant difference to cases and therefore the benefits outweigh the cons. That isn’t really borne out by studies on mask mandates, including studies from very pro mask groups like the cdc. That study found a 0.7% decrease in growth rate of cases from mask mandates. So the real world scientific evidence seems to suggest that masks marginally decrease cases. Another study found a 2% reduction in cases over 3 weeks - so if 1 in 1000 are infected, after 3 weeks of a mask mandate 0.98 in 1000 will be infected. If that tiny benefit is deemed worth it, it’s hard to see how removing masks could ever be justified. If you want masks in schools until the end of the school year presumably you will want them next autumn if there’s an increase in cases in case there are variants etc. and then you have a situation where children’s learning and comfort at school has been impacted for years, for some very significantly. I think undue importance is placed on masks because they’re such a visual reminder of the pandemic and maybe make people feel like they have some control over the risk.

I think the assumption from some of the teachers on this thread is that masks make a very significant difference to cases and therefore the benefits outweigh the cons

Weird then that the scientists advising the government think that is very important that they be kept in schools isn’t it?

So many people keen to rush in and say it’s silly little teachers worrying their heads about nothing, when in fact it’s the scientific advice to keep them.

Except she didn’t say a word about ‘silly little teachers.’

It didn’t agree with you but was perfectly polite and respectful towards teachers.

@palacegirl77

Do you know what else eliminates the spread? Locking your child in their bedroom. They don't spread anything that way! Point is about weighing up the pros and cons! The masks being used are not medical grade and most certainly not used correctly ergo they're more harm than good.

Not true - the rise in cases in secondaries since the kids went back is slower than before and less than in primaries (no masks). The evidence is that masks work - or SAGE wouldn't be recommending them and doctors and nurses wouldn't be wearing them either.

There really is no downside to masks at all in a system where anyone can be exempt if they need to be.

Yes the CDC recommend masks as do SAGE and Indie SAGE and the entire scientific community. Being against masks is anti-science.

Also, no-one is forced to wear a mask.

People who don't want their kids in school with other students who are predominantly wearing masks can de-register them if it's such a problem for them. Just as CV families were told last year to deregister their children if concerned about the lack of mitigation in schools.

Spot on @chessie. Not forgetting that in those studies the masks would have been actual masks (not face cloths) and worn correctly (not reused, shoved in pockets etc). But put that to anyone and you're a "nutjob" or against teachers. Nope, just want them to be found to be more beneficial than not. Has my child worn one - yes everyday. But yet she is still off school this week because she sat near a girl (also in a mask) for 1 hour last week. If the masks were beneficial she would be deemed protected by said mask and not have to isolate.

The masks being used are not medical grade and most certainly not used correctly ergo they're more harm than good.

In what way are they doing actual harm?

Funny. I haven't seen many nurses wearing Spiderman masks made of cheap fabric, reusing them day after day and touching them on their fronts and shoving them in pockets or under their chins. Almost as if a medical professional understands how to use them!

I don’t think they are doing any harm medically but there’s an argument they impact negatively on education.

@borntobequiet

The masks being used are not medical grade and most certainly not used correctly ergo they're more harm than good.

In what way are they doing actual harm?

Language development. Social development. Ability to communicate with peers. Facial acne, health anxiety, breathing in germs when being reused..shall I go on?

a very significant difference to cases and therefore the benefits outweigh the cons

Given the infection spreads exponentially, even preventing only one infection can have a significant longer term effect. Preventing that one transmission could save lives. The benefits are clear, the disadvantages minor in most cases.

Language development. Social development. Ability to communicate with peers. Facial acne, health anxiety, breathing in germs when being reused..shall I go on?

Please don’t, because these are, for most, minor consequences of a relatively simple and uncontroversial to mitigate the harms caused by a virus that can kill and cause long term illness.

Missed out the word intervention.

borntobequiet

but palacegirl77 has used buzz words and must be correct.

@TheSunIsStillShining

What harm do masks do ffs? do you know what slows spread: proper masks worn properly; distancing; proper air flow indoors. So yes, masks work. They work really well, if enough of the population wears them. And because of ppl like you my son is not going to school, not socializing...he is being punished by everyone else's stupidity.

@IloveJKRowling
how can you keep correcting these -nuts- after so many months? I am more than fed up. I am sick and tired on my son's behalf and just wish people could think and act responsibly and put aside their selfishness.

@TheSunIsStillShining

I think I'm in denial that people can be so callous as to refuse to agree that everyone who can should wear a thin piece of cloth over nose and mouth indoors when in large groups. Something so very easy albeit occasionally a bit annoying - in order to literally save other people's lives or protect them from disability or just even to slow down the pandemic and the emergence of variants (that could pose a risk to the vaccination program). Particularly when I think about the risks to clinically vulnerable children in schools.

I can't believe that they are so ideologically opposed to mask wearing in schools that they'd like to deprive those who want to / those HTs who want to from doing it. Despite the fact that any child can have an exemption for any reason.

I just find it unbelievable, really.

And I still haven't heard the case for removing masks from secondary schools - what are the benefits? Haven't heard any that apply to more than a minority.

@Toomanymuslins

I don’t think they are doing any harm medically but there’s an argument they impact negatively on education.

More of a negative impact than lockdown? Because maybe we might have avoided so many if we'd all worn masks early on. Other countries have.

More of a negative impact than 150000 bereavements? I bet there's a child affected with each and every one, even if a grandparent. Not to mention the awful impact on children who've lost parents to covid. What about their education?

Buzzwords? Ok. Maybe the words from the British Medical Journal might be acceptable as obviously the teachers and mums on here are far more qualified to tell me about masks than medical professionals!

Wearing a face mask may give a false sense of security and make people adopt a reduction in compliance with other infection control measures, including social distancing and hands washing.[3]

(2) Inappropriate use of face mask: people must not touch their masks, must change their single-use masks frequently or wash them regularly, dispose them correctly and adopt other management measures, otherwise their risks and those of others may increase.[3,4]

Other potential side effects that we must consider are:

(3) The quality and the volume of speech between two people wearing masks is considerably compromised and they may unconsciously come closer. While one may be trained to counteract side effect n.1, this side effect may be more difficult to tackle.

(4) Wearing a face mask makes the exhaled air go into the eyes. This generates an uncomfortable feeling and an impulse to touch your eyes. If your hands are contaminated, you are infecting yourself.

(5) Face masks make breathing more difficult. For people with COPD, face masks are in fact intolerable to wear as they worsen their breathlessness.[5] Moreover, a fraction of carbon dioxide previously exhaled is inhaled at each respiratory cycle. Those two phenomena increase breathing frequency and deepness, and hence they increase the amount of inhaled and exhaled air. This may worsen the burden of covid-19 if infected people wearing masks spread more contaminated air. This may also worsen the clinical condition of infected people if the enhanced breathing pushes the viral load down into their lungs.

(5B) The effects described at point 5 are amplified if face masks are heavily contaminated (see point 2)

(6) While impeding person-to-person transmission is key to limiting the outbreak, so far little importance has been given to the events taking place after a transmission has happened, when innate immunity plays a crucial role. The main purpose of the innate immune response is to immediately prevent the spread and movement of foreign pathogens throughout the body.[6] The innate immunity’s efficacy is highly dependent on the viral load. If face masks determine a humid habitat where the SARS-CoV-2 can remain active due to the water vapour continuously provided by breathing and captured by the mask fabric, they determine an increase in viral load and therefore they can cause a defeat of the innate immunity and an increase in infections. This phenomenon may also interact with and enhance previous points.

I think unfortunately most countries had school closures.

In any case, it’s not about what was but what is. Masks were necessary. With a robust vaccination programme hopefully not now.

Very few children will have lost a parent to covid, given the average ages of death. But in any event, no one is denying the awfulness of the pandemic. It is just that some environments aren’t suited to masks. The classroom is one of them, IMO.

@Toomanymuslins

I think unfortunately most countries had school closures.

In any case, it’s not about what was but what is. Masks were necessary. With a robust vaccination programme hopefully not now.

Very few children will have lost a parent to covid, given the average ages of death. But in any event, no one is denying the awfulness of the pandemic. It is just that some environments aren’t suited to masks. The classroom is one of them, IMO.

Well put.

I am in a country who has covid more under control than the UK. I'm also a teacher. Today a child coughed my face. I'm glad we were both wearing masks

Again here is the most recent scientific advice that some seem determined to ignore.

@palacegirl77

Buzzwords? Ok. Maybe the words from the British Medical Journal might be acceptable as obviously the teachers and mums on here are far more qualified to tell me about masks than medical professionals!

Wearing a face mask may give a false sense of security and make people adopt a reduction in compliance with other infection control measures, including social distancing and hands washing.[3]

(2) Inappropriate use of face mask: people must not touch their masks, must change their single-use masks frequently or wash them regularly, dispose them correctly and adopt other management measures, otherwise their risks and those of others may increase.[3,4]

Other potential side effects that we must consider are:

(3) The quality and the volume of speech between two people wearing masks is considerably compromised and they may unconsciously come closer. While one may be trained to counteract side effect n.1, this side effect may be more difficult to tackle.

(4) Wearing a face mask makes the exhaled air go into the eyes. This generates an uncomfortable feeling and an impulse to touch your eyes. If your hands are contaminated, you are infecting yourself.

(5) Face masks make breathing more difficult. For people with COPD, face masks are in fact intolerable to wear as they worsen their breathlessness.[5] Moreover, a fraction of carbon dioxide previously exhaled is inhaled at each respiratory cycle. Those two phenomena increase breathing frequency and deepness, and hence they increase the amount of inhaled and exhaled air. This may worsen the burden of covid-19 if infected people wearing masks spread more contaminated air. This may also worsen the clinical condition of infected people if the enhanced breathing pushes the viral load down into their lungs.

(5B) The effects described at point 5 are amplified if face masks are heavily contaminated (see point 2)

(6) While impeding person-to-person transmission is key to limiting the outbreak, so far little importance has been given to the events taking place after a transmission has happened, when innate immunity plays a crucial role. The main purpose of the innate immune response is to immediately prevent the spread and movement of foreign pathogens throughout the body.[6] The innate immunity’s efficacy is highly dependent on the viral load. If face masks determine a humid habitat where the SARS-CoV-2 can remain active due to the water vapour continuously provided by breathing and captured by the mask fabric, they determine an increase in viral load and therefore they can cause a defeat of the innate immunity and an increase in infections. This phenomenon may also interact with and enhance previous points.

oh my god....

The quality and the volume of speech between two people wearing masks is considerably compromised and they may unconsciously come closer

if you are talking about sec school kids - they should be intelligent enough to understand that they might nee to raise their voice a bit. It's really not that hard.

Wearing a face mask makes the exhaled air go into the eyes. This generates an uncomfortable feeling and an impulse to touch your eyes.
The point would be to wear a proper mask where this doesn't happen. If Socks and shoes generate an uncomfortable feeling and an impulse to touch your feet. Yet we all wear shoes.

Face masks make breathing more difficult. For people with COPD, .. (sic)
There are about 1m diagnosed with COPD in the UK. That is a tiny fraction of the 67m ppl living here. I have IBD, around 650k ppl in the UK have it. So it's perfectly okay to have measures in place because of us, or is it just one minority that you go on about?
If 65m ppl would be wearing masks than there would not be an issue for those who really can't not to. (see asian countries where this is totally normal)
Just by logic, the rest of point 5 is totally bonkers.

1. so, I go into tesco in a mask. I get a viral load of 1000 particles. all 1000 particles are on my mask, on the outside. The mask has min 3, but usually 5 layers, intervowen. With every breath 1-2 particles might get sucked in.

other scenario: why would the virus stay alive in the humid, warm conditions within the mask? The point is to keep particles out. so they are on the outside.

let's say I have covid, but don't know it.
scenario1: i wear a proper mask. breathing is no more laborious than without one. I let out 1000 particles. Maybe 200 escape the mask. Yay! I've saved someone.

The particles that I exhaled have already been in me! so I am not really adding to my viral load. au contraire: I have got rid of 1000 particles that otherwise would have had a party in me. Now they are left to die at the curb -sorry, in the mask.

I haven't seen many nurses wearing Spiderman masks

Do you think that secondary school kids are?

@thesunis I'm not saying anything. That was from the BMJ - free free to argue with scientists all you like. I'm not saying their are not any positives - I'm simply saying other aspects should also be considered.

[quote palacegirl77]@thesunis I'm not saying anything. That was from the BMJ - free free to argue with scientists all you like. I'm not saying their are not any positives - I'm simply saying other aspects should also be considered.[/quote]
The problem is that the last part of your sentence is not really true. You are not giving balanced arguments, you are advocating solely on one side.