Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots 2

[Whichjab]

Just starting another thread as so much information still coming out. Interesting that Germany have just allowed AZ for all that want it.

Note, this is not an Anti-Vaccs thread. It is just a discussion about alternatives.

@Whichjab the jury’s still out on that one tbh - it seems mRNA is better at generating antibodies, but AZ better at T cells

This statement is based on what we know at the moment. There are few certainties at the moment . If you don't agree with their estimations/assumptions then there is not much point looking at their graphs are either.

That is entirely my point. There is so much uncertainty atm. A data table and accompanied graphs gives the impression it is possible to calculate risk not just at a societal but also at an individual level. This is simply not the case. It is understandable that the scientists are trying to be transparent and show their homework but briefings in public should have in mind the lay audience they are addressing.

Where the general public are relying on expert advice then there is an expectation that they will err on the side of caution with interventions and convey emerging downside risks, however small, quickly and transparently (ie not an opaque moving target data table equivocating about how hard their job is with an expectation that individuals will happily risk "taking one for the team"). The general public had access to information in the public domain and other countries had acted upon it before the MHRA even acknowledge there may be an issue. Hard to see how anyone would not consider this problematic.

The vast majority of people never read side effect leaflets or even attempt to understand finely balanced risk analysis. Therefore the wording for those that do needs to be far more careful and nuanced. They will be paying attention for a reason. For those that don't want the responsibility of deciding for themselves (over 90% of cohorts to date for most routine UK vaccines) the advice needs to be cautious and clear.

Meanwhile Slovakia is pausing AZ as from today.

Brazil has stopped giving AZ to pregnant women after a death. It's not clear if it was blood clot related however. www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/brazil-health-agency-calls-halt-astrazeneca-vaccine-pregnant-women-2021-05-11/

@NearlyAlwaysInsane

No not flying, but travelling where other variants not covered by AZ are endemic.

Is that the Indian stain?

A lot in the press about Pfizer's supposed effectiveness against new strains. I haven't seen anything much on AZ. Might this be the real motivation, rather than a rare side effect, for the new policies preferring Pfizer?

@Schulte just to add, Slovakia suspended the use of AZ after the death of one person from a probable vaccine related blood clot, a 47 year old female.

[quote pingalinga]@Schulte just to add, Slovakia suspended the use of AZ after the death of one person from a probable vaccine related blood clot, a 47 year old female.[/quote]
Meanwhile we are still dishing it out after over 700 deaths

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/983475/COVID-19_vaccine_AstraZeneca_analysis_print.pdf

Meanwhile we are still dishing it out after over 700 deaths

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/983475/COVID-19_vaccine_AstraZeneca_analysis_print.pdf

Am hoping someone can confirm that I’m reading the above document correctly - so does the term “reaction” mean “anything that happened after the AZ vaccine was administered”? Just that otherwise I’m struggling to work out how “smoking cessation therapy” or “appendicectomy” is a reaction to the vaccine, or how it has caused death by metastatic brain cancer?

@MrsFezziwig

Meanwhile we are still dishing it out after over 700 deaths

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/983475/COVID-19_vaccine_AstraZeneca_analysis_print.pdf

Am hoping someone can confirm that I’m reading the above document correctly - so does the term “reaction” mean “anything that happened after the AZ vaccine was administered”? Just that otherwise I’m struggling to work out how “smoking cessation therapy” or “appendicectomy” is a reaction to the vaccine, or how it has caused death by metastatic brain cancer?

I was wondering that too. I'm fairly sure that the vast majority of those reactions cannot be directly attributed to the AZ vaccine. One of them was a fatal reaction to a bereavement issue which surely cannot be caused by the vaccine?

Slovakia suspending AZ . After just one rare side effect death... Has the Indian strain reached Slovakia yet?

@Tealightsandd

Slovakia suspending AZ . After just one rare side effect death... Has the Indian strain reached Slovakia yet?

According to the German press, it was the third such death in Slovakia. They have given 1.2 million doses so far.

toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-will-no-longer-offer-first-doses-of-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-1.5423379

Since there are safer vaccines I suppose Slovakia has decided that one vaccine related death (or three now) is too many.

Oh?! Hadn’t they only recently started to use it again after an initial pause?

@Schulte

Oh?! Hadn’t they only recently started to use it again after an initial pause?

I meant Ontario, sorry to not be clearer

@Schulte

Oh?! Hadn’t they only recently started to use it again after an initial pause?

I believe they were offering it on a voluntary basis at pharmacies. Seems a sensible decision to pause it again based on the case numbers and availability of other vaccines.

@pingalinga

Since there are safer vaccines I suppose Slovakia has decided that one vaccine related death (or three now) is too many.

All the vaccines have rare side effects. Pfizer was linked to heart inflammation in Israel.

No, I suspect this is something to do with efficacy (including against Long Covid) and/or variants such as the Indian strain. Perhaps I'm wrong - but if I'm right, those who've had AZ will need a Pfizer booster.

@Bunbury952 Thanks very useful article.
a quote from it.
"At this point in time, and given that we're seeing the overall case numbers of COVID going down, and an increase in the safety signal at a population level, it makes sense to pause AstraZeneca, because the risk of severe outcomes with VITT shouldn't be underestimated.”

While I'm not sure countries necessarily need to stop using AZ I think all people regardless of age in the UK should be given the choice of an alternate vaccine if they wish (when supplies allow)

@Tealightsandd I know all vaccines have rare side effects, and if AZ was the only one against Covid I would say it's worth the risk. But we have other safer vaccines that haven't had the consistently reported clot risks. I agree the myocarditis or was it pericarditis reports from Israel are also worrisome, but so far other countries have not reported these in large numbers as far as I'm aware.

@Tealightsandd I think these restrictions are still primarily about the clots. Many countries were already taking this kind of action before the Indian variant was such a concern. Now that we have more data on AZ and the clotting rates, it's natural that countries are updating their advice.

It's not just about variants though. I've seen reports that AZ prevents hospitalisations and deaths. Does Pfizer prevent all infections including mild? (I've not seen latest data) If it does, it means protection against long Covid.

The more I read the more frustrated and angry I'm getting that we are not being given a choice.

Choice of vaccines I mean.

@pingalinga

While I'm not sure countries necessarily need to stop using AZ I think all people regardless of age in the UK should be given the choice of an alternate vaccine if they wish (when supplies allow)

I agree. It was disappointing to read that Novavax approval is being delayed until Q3. Great sounding vaccine that could fill the AZ gap.