EU suing AZ

[Baileysforchristmas]

Do you think it’s a good idea to sue a non profit vaccine producer in the middle of a pandemic? Especially when it’s in the contract the EU can’t sue for late delivery

www.politico.eu/article/belgium-was-warned-eus-astrazeneca-contract-lacked-teeth-documents/

@Dublincailin how could they have said what they could deliver for sure , at the time these contracts were signed there was no guaranteed working vaccine

@Aloethere they were never going to deliver all doses in a couple months so they are under but actually by how many
You can't look at the whole order and compare

@worriedatthemoment

Lets not pretend the eu are using as much az as they have ordered die to the fact mostly only used on over certain ages , so they don't need it all and they can't blame some of the early failures all on Az , they need to accept they were a bit late to the game as well .

What do mean pretend? Where I live in the EU all of the AZ doses we are given are being used? There are lots of over 50s still awaiting their vaccine so it is very much needed and very much hindering the vaccine rollout that it isn't being delivered on time. The EU have ordered it, I don't think it is up to you or AZ to say meh they don't need it anyway and just not deliver it? And what do you mean early failures? AZ are still failing to deliver, is it still early or can we blame AZ now?

@OuiOuiKitty calm down i never said it was upto me but its very clear that the eu won't need anywhere near what they have ordered is what I meant before you jump in.
Maybe get some doses from countries that are sat in it
How far behind are az now do you know ?
Do you have the figures ?
I was talking about pfizer and moderna early delays which we had in uk and still have had ongoing on and off

Rafal the contract timing may not be as relevant as suggested as an agreement was in place earlier on between U.K. and AZ

Do you know what impact the country / client has wrt production?

Eg when UdvL and MEPs talk about underestimating how tricky it would be and long it would take do their decisions have an impact? For U.K. v EU timescales

[quote worriedatthemoment]@Aloethere they were never going to deliver all doses in a couple months so they are under but actually by how many
You can't look at the whole order and compare[/quote]
I'm not looking at the whole order? I'm looking at what they were supposed to deliver in q1 and q2? The only delivered a third of what was promised in q1 and q2 the lowered the amount they were supposed to deliver by half.
What other companies are doing this?

@OuiOuiKitty but if the contract is best efforts , then that is to be expected and as its now only being used in certain age groups is as much needed ? Granted that then means more of another vaccine is needed instead to plug the gap but originally order would of been placed to give to all and less will have it now , its forever moving in the uk we have had to adjust out programme as well as ideally az won't be given to under 30's , we also had pfizer delivery delays and moderna now
But just a couple of weeks ago some eu countries had some sat in warehouses it was reported
And annoying the usa have it and aren't using they should ship it elsewhere although other countries more in need than the eu

[quote worriedatthemoment]@OuiOuiKitty calm down i never said it was upto me but its very clear that the eu won't need anywhere near what they have ordered is what I meant before you jump in.
Maybe get some doses from countries that are sat in it
How far behind are az now do you know ?
Do you have the figures ?
I was talking about pfizer and moderna early delays which we had in uk and still have had ongoing on and off [/quote]
I am calm
What EU countries are 'sat in it'? Certainly not Denmark as the OP has continually suggested.

I thought this thread was about the EU sueing AZ not about the UK and their deliveries? Someone asked were they sueing other companies that haven't delivered, I answered that no company has under delivered like AZ in the EU. The UK isn't in the EU so late deliveries by any company to the UK isn't something the EU would be concerned with.

@OuiOuiKitty I think we know the UK isn't in the EU we voted for it after all.
The uk goverment isn't suing anyone and I just don't see what the eu will gain from this , its a not for profit vaccine.
It won't speed up delivery , I suppose they could get a cash payment , it will make other vaccine manufacturers wary on the future and what of its found in favour of Az which neither me or you can predict

Rafals I think the UK had pre existing agreement with AZ and had financed development of supply chains etc. So UK production was in the best possible starting place. The UK has even invested in the EU supply chain, which is money we are unlikely to see again! The EU tried to drive down the price of a non profit vaccine and seems to focus on demanding and suing, rather than acting like a partner and assisting in putting right what has gone wrong.
I think the difference is probably that the UK intended to use AZ from the beginning so had incentive to invest, whereas for the EU, there was maybe an expectation that Sanofi (amongst others) would be the primary vaccine.
I do think AZ does have to justify its slowed down production but I think they will probably be able to do this to a level which makes it hard to prove legally that best efforts were not adhered to. Especially since we are talking about biological processes which can easily go wrong.
If I was head of AZ though, given the constant criticism of the product etc, I might be inclined to not make as much effort to resolve issues with that customer than I would had they been supportive rather than publicly critical.

@worriedatthemoment

Lets not pretend the eu are using as much az as they have ordered die to the fact mostly only used on over certain ages , so they don't need it all and they can't blame some of the early failures all on Az , they need to accept they were a bit late to the game as well .

Untrue.

As an example, Spain has administered approx 80% of the 3.815.500 AZ doses it has received (as of last week)

241 of those are second doses, so another 3,815,259 doses will be needed just to complete the vaccination cycle of people who have already had it. Allowing for 20% stockpiled, still over 3 million doses will be needed from around the end of next month when the 12 week mark rolls around, just for the second doses. And there are still many first doses to give to people from 55-70.

It is needed.

@QuentininQuarantino I didn't say its not needed just they won't need as much as ordered as its not being given to everyone now
The uk is the same we won't need all thats ordered overall
Im glad as is being used and up taken in the eu as the uk needs the eu vaccinated as well and I don't think we are that far ahead
I just don't see what the eu will gain from this and if its found against them it could really backfire

[quote worriedatthemoment]@OuiOuiKitty I think we know the UK isn't in the EU we voted for it after all.
The uk goverment isn't suing anyone and I just don't see what the eu will gain from this , its a not for profit vaccine.
It won't speed up delivery , I suppose they could get a cash payment , it will make other vaccine manufacturers wary on the future and what of its found in favour of Az which neither me or you can predict [/quote]
If they find in favour of AZ they find in favour of AZ. I presume the EU know that that is a possibility as it is with any legal action. Given that the EU is moving away from AZ and is signing contracts with other manufacturers it doesn't seem that the other manufacturers care too much.

That Sanofi thing again. This information is public. You do not need to make stuff up.

EU Contracts were: AstraZeneca (400 million doses), Sanofi-GSK (300 million doses), Johnson and Johnson (400 million doses ), BioNTech-Pfizer 600 million doses, CureVac (405 million doses) and Moderna (160 million doses). Novavax 200 million doses, Valneva 60 million doses.

The UK ordered more Sanofi than it did Pfizer!

@OuiOuiKitty they probably have robust contracts though and of course people will still sign as its money , but its fair to think that companies will be more wary as they are suing a not for profit vaccine maker.
They haven't signed with all though, but if you were a vaccine maker and knowing challenges that they can have, nobody can guarantee that supply issues may not arise

So I am sure the companies signing up bow have very robust contracts
If Az have lied or deliberately delayed etc then fair enough , but can't see why they would or what this would achieve

@QuentininQuarantino and johnson and johnson is now delayed right ?
Or is that just temp why they look into it ?

I think Johnson and Johnson has been restarted after the EMA announcement last week - at least here its been being used this week to do the 70-79 year olds, and they're on track to finish that this week which is nice as that's just the one jab so they're finally done.

@QuentininQuarantino to be fair the uk ordered from many and actually got it quite right it seems , it was always a gamble on which would work and same for EU.
In fact in all honesty the vaccines probably came around sooner than we all expected

@QuentininQuarantino yes one jab is great especially for those who hate needles

I think a lot of these problems are due to the AZ vaccine being produced for no profit. It was a wonderful idea but in retrospect Oxford should have specified no profit prices for Covax but other countries should be paying the going rate. That would have ensured more money to invest in the production facilities (this certainly seems to have been an issue with the plants in EU countries) and also I think the lower the cost of an item, the less people value it.

Pfizer and Moderna etc. probably cannot believe how naive AZ were to agree to no profit. But then they presumably are experienced vaccine producers and know just how tricky the process can be whereas AZ are not.

@QuentininQuarantino are you in spain ? I noticed numbers there are looking better now , do you think this is due to vaccine rollout ?
In the uk it appears to be but I am also waiting to see what numbers do when we fully open and obviously for the whole world what the autumn/ winter brings

How under delivered is AZ to eu ? Upto now , does anyone know

If the EU want the vaccine then ask Denmark, or other EU countries who don’t want it to redistribute it throughout the EU. This is coming from Brussels. It’s a UK product and this is what it is all about. They have messed up big time so caught in a corner they come out shouting and blaming anyone but themselves. They ordered at the last minute and their roll out has been dismal. SoAZ has produced this vaccine at cost. Well done AZ. Hope your business thrives. Well done Oxford for working with them and providing a cheaper and more easily stored vaccine. Brussels is a disgrace. I fought hard to remain in the EU and was heart broken about Brexit. This has, in my opinion, shown us what we were really a part of. Business is going to suffer in the UK and in Europe but what they really care about is control,

I am @worriedatthemoment although my whole family is in the UK.

Numbers of covid? The Kent variant started taking off in time for a bit of Easter mixing unfortunately, and makes up 94% of all cases now. We're riding the peak of the fourth wave and yes, its happily much lower than previous peaks. The vaccines are definitely making a difference in death numbers and the average ICU age is down a lot. In two weeks time the state of emergency will be lifted and the numbers will naturally go up again, but there will also be more vaccinated, so its a bit of a race!

@Sweetpeasaremadeforbees

I think a lot of these problems are due to the AZ vaccine being produced for no profit. It was a wonderful idea but in retrospect Oxford should have specified no profit prices for Covax but other countries should be paying the going rate. That would have ensured more money to invest in the production facilities (this certainly seems to have been an issue with the plants in EU countries) and also I think the lower the cost of an item, the less people value it.

Pfizer and Moderna etc. probably cannot believe how naive AZ were to agree to no profit. But then they presumably are experienced vaccine producers and know just how tricky the process can be whereas AZ are not.

Completely agree. Not only do people on the ground then think it is inferior ( as thought of as cheap ), countries can also afford more of it so put in higher dose requests. Like a triple storm of cheap, logistically easy to transport etc, plus actually works pretty well which are all great things of course but the paradox is that demand goes through the roof and everyone and his dog orders it in huge numbers and everyone wants it immediately.