EU suing AZ

[Baileysforchristmas]

Do you think it’s a good idea to sue a non profit vaccine producer in the middle of a pandemic? Especially when it’s in the contract the EU can’t sue for late delivery

www.politico.eu/article/belgium-was-warned-eus-astrazeneca-contract-lacked-teeth-documents/

I’m questioning Denmark as they aren’t using AZ anymore, not even for 2nd doses, they have 3.5 million doses somewhere, nobody seems to know which country will use them? Australia missing 250k, where have they gone? I get people are annoyed with AZ not fulfilling there orders but shouldn’t the deliveries to other countries which aren’t being used also be questioned? They have a 6 month shelf life.

I had a bold fail on my last answer

Mintjulia

The EU can try to sue but they will only succeed in making themselves look even more ridiculous than they already have.

I've been dismayed by their behaviour, they have been solely responsible for damaging their own reputation“

Agree (voted remain)

This EU AZ tension has been going on for months! If the EU felt they had a case - why did they not start the process of sueing earlier and if they were right get things sorted sooner for their citizens?

People can bash the EU all they like (but it would be nice if it was with truths), and someone upthread quoted AZs statement saying that they’ve provided 97% of the Covax vaccines, all very noble.

However what they didn’t write is that the UK has now given almost as many doses to its own citizens than Covax has been able to ship to 120 entire third world countries, because AZ is not delivering to Covax either.

@QuentininQuarantino

People can bash the EU all they like (but it would be nice if it was with truths), and someone upthread quoted AZs statement saying that they’ve provided 97% of the Covax vaccines, all very noble.

However what they didn’t write is that the UK has now given almost as many doses to its own citizens than Covax has been able to ship to 120 entire third world countries, because AZ is not delivering to Covax either.

But what is the equivalent to your second paragraph for Pfizer, Moderna etc?

For those saying that Moderna have delivered on time, this article suggests they are behind for the UK (and Canada) www.reuters.com/world/uk/moderna-sees-shortfall-britain-covid-vaccine-shipments-eu-deliveries-track-2021-04-16/

@MarshaBradyo I don’t have info but I imagine that those responsible for covax procurement took the words of Astrazeneca at the same face value as the EU did when they gave projected figures and orders were placed. I imagine that AstraZeneca was chosen for cost reasons (again I have no info myself) and that were AstraZeneca honest about projections (here I do know a bit about pharmaceutical projections through work and it’s inexcusable to get it that wrong) then COVAX may have ordered more pfizer and moderna and others.

Basically Covax and the EU are in the same boat but the EU has a bigger megaphone.

Really sorry if rather dense questions.
Is Belgian contract law not same as any other member state but in French?
Is it Belgium because commission is based there? I assume not due to being manufactured there as no laws in Dutch?
I guess I just assumed I'm such a globalised woman if international trade contact law be broadly similar everywhere.
I know because we left EU we bot subject to EU laws by lots member states won't extradite to UK and as the 2 AZ are different entities it would be very difficult if not impossible get UK factories to send to EU although I believe from memory there was a clause about 1 UK site but caveat was once UK had completed their order they would send outside the UK.
I honestly do think reading on this board and speaking to locals we may actually have issues with AZ supply within the UK.
If we not using on under 40s anymore.
Pfizer I imagine is reserved for 2nd doses
Moderna for 1st and we only had 500 k out of 17million delivered so far .
The UK government is very cagey about stocks and supply.
But my understanding is the serum institute was additional contract separate to the az one.
So UK ordered 10million from INDIA and 5million delivered.
The EU also approached india for extra doses once again I assume new contract not with AZ but india not exporting die to their domestic situation.
What muddied the waters so to speak is where exactly the EU doses delivered so far came from.
As AZ if memory served me correctly found extra 8million in quarter 1 I think that must been from India or even America.
Yet EU accused usa and uk sending them nothing which was factually untrue.
The UK sends pfizer component.
Not clear if the USA just delivered raw components or actual vaccines .
The UK az plants said they currently had none to spare and we invested millions in the Netherlands site and sent vaccine task force to both uk factories to try and help those subcontractor in Increase yeild.
So we couldn't sent finished vaccines we just don't produce enough but we invested millions, send actual practical help and advice and raw components so how is that not classed as reprocicity?
It does appear we were due some Az from halix on the Netherlands which the commission proudly and openly blocked.
They seem fixated with uk trying steal thier vaccines that we are somehow better off.
They forget we were hardest hit.
That we wouldn't risk a smuggling ring in Northern Ireland of vaccines.
They lost their mind on that one.
They somehow cherry pick facts. My understanding is we started producing az before contracts were even signed 3months before so we had a head start.
The date the contacts signed a red herring in terms of uk az production.
Az was produced by a UK University however its not a UK owned vaccine we invested lots public money but we don't retain ownership.
Oxford University retain the patents not az and Oxford uni is a private institution.
The UK hasent got all the AZ it ordered.
If our contract states we should have got x amount from Netherlands and we haven't then the UK would be perfectly entitled take legal action against AZ and enact the penalty clauses.
But we haven't we just let it go and tried India and got 5million there.
The UK government has been unusually tight lipped calm and diplomatic for a change.
The UK mainstream media are the guilty culprits if anti EU stories.

Puzzled by az statement the EU will have received 50million by end April.
End quarter 2 end of June?
How many by end quarter 2 June i thought I read 70 or 80milliom out of 100million so 20_30million short and in grand scheme of huge numbers such a tiny amount.

We know they getting 55million janson by end if June.
They have been getting more moderna than UK.
Pfizer I think has managed to keep EU happy..

Each member state ordered different amounts each type of vaccine.
So the countries that ordered more az are hardest hit as no Pfizer fall back on.
They can revise their orders upwards to get extra but only when original order amount fulfilled so big issue with e procurement scheme is lack of flexibility which is why the Austrian pm was unhappy.

I am assuming curevac be delayed and be more 2nd generation vaccine available later this year.
So all EU have now is pfizer moderna and janson to vaccinate entire population.

I don't understand this confidence in janson if has same risks as AZ.
I did feel before clotting issues even came to light that AZ was talked about in a negative way.

[quote QuentininQuarantino]@MarshaBradyo I don’t have info but I imagine that those responsible for covax procurement took the words of Astrazeneca at the same face value as the EU did when they gave projected figures and orders were placed. I imagine that AstraZeneca was chosen for cost reasons (again I have no info myself) and that were AstraZeneca honest about projections (here I do know a bit about pharmaceutical projections through work and it’s inexcusable to get it that wrong) then COVAX may have ordered more pfizer and moderna and others.

Basically Covax and the EU are in the same boat but the EU has a bigger megaphone.[/quote]
I still quite can't believe Canada is taking vaccines from covax.
I guess its covax that most benefit from AZ now as its the cheapest and easier to store and people in developing countries be less fussy what vaccines they get.

@QuentininQuarantino - I was giving a full population percentage not just adults, because it's the full population that contribute to herd immunity.

@Dublincailin - This is a multi-billion dollar business, which is playing games because I feel they are not making profits on the vaccine.
That's a huge accusation "playing games"; how do you think that's happening? Are you envisaging staff not working, or how else is that occurring?

Yes that seems off to me too @3asAbird and yes it makes sense that covax would need a vaccine that is easier to transport and store.

But 97% of barely anything is still barely anything, it was underhand and unnecessary to try to win brownie points in their statement.

@MRex but your figure is off by a long way - where did you get it? Our world in data matches with the Spain ministry of health numbers and this reported in el país.

@Baileysforchristmas

I’m questioning Denmark as they aren’t using AZ anymore, not even for 2nd doses, they have 3.5 million doses somewhere, nobody seems to know which country will use them? Australia missing 250k, where have they gone? I get people are annoyed with AZ not fulfilling there orders but shouldn’t the deliveries to other countries which aren’t being used also be questioned? They have a 6 month shelf life.

But Denmark doesn't have 3.5 millions doses lying around - they have 3.5 million doses of still outstanding orders.

[quote QuentininQuarantino]@MRex but your figure is off by a long way - where did you get it? Our world in data matches with the Spain ministry of health numbers and this reported in el país.[/quote]
Sorry, I got it from Reuters: graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/spain/
Looks like they calculate their percentage in a bizarrely unhelpful way at assumptions of 2 doses rather than number of first doses. Your numbers are correct.

I've been dismayed by their behaviour, they have been solely responsible for damaging their own reputation

I don't think beyond in the UK that the EUs reputation has been damaged to be honest. And to be quite frank I'm not sure anyone particularly cares what the UK thinks about the EU given they chose to leave and their undermining of the NI protocol.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you or I think of this legal action. It is the EUs right to take it and it will be decided by those far more knowledgeable on this issue than us. The EU are moving away from AZ jabs and this whole thing will be irrelevant soon enough.

Oh yes that is a strange way to do it especially with Johnson being a one dose vaccine!

@MRex

Please reread what I wrote again, I did not accuse. I said I feel that is what they are doing.

Feeling something is not an accusation. I did not openly accuse, it is my personal feeling. I am of course assuming that I am allowed my feeling, belief, opinion even though Im an EU citizen.

I have yet to hear of a conviction in which an accused was convicted purely based on the feeling of one person.

But I am sure someone will be along to educate me.

The lawyers and judges will be the only people who get any real say.

All posts on this and any other chat room is all talk. Ultimately nothing we say will have any bearing.

Are they suing in a eu courts though ? Are they suing anyone else as others also ran late as well ?

But Denmark doesn't have 3.5 millions doses lying around - they have 3.5 million doses of still outstanding orders

This is a good point. Where are you getting the fact that Denmark has 3.5million doses sitting somewhere? Remember AZ are not delivering on time. A BBC article I just read suggests that Denmark only got 202,000 doses with 150,000 of those having been administered? Where have you learnt that they have since received a further 3.3 million doses that they have left sitting around? This is a quote from the article:

*There's no global record but regional data provides a snapshot. Denmark, for example, had received 202,920 doses of AZ as of 15 April, figures from European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDP) show.

Of those, 150,671 doses were administered, leaving 52,249 doses unused.*

Lets not pretend the eu are using as much az as they have ordered die to the fact mostly only used on over certain ages , so they don't need it all and they can't blame some of the early failures all on Az , they need to accept they were a bit late to the game as well .

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I don't think it's fair to blame AZ for lives lost. AZ could respond by asking how many lives were lost because the EU haggled over cost and took too long to sign up. Going down that route is like going down a rabbit hole and helps no one.

The EU signed heir purchasing agreement with AZ before the U.K. did. IIRC. Only about 24hrs before admittedly, but it really isn’t true that the EU delayed about this unless the same is true of the U.K.

The EU might have made mistakes with vaccine procurement but I really don’t think it’s the big screw up that MN seems to believe it is. The biggest impact on vaccine roll out in most EU countries is AZ consistently promising and then failing to deliver. All of the companies have had production issues at some point, but some are a bit more equitable in how they reduce what they deliver.

@worriedatthemoment

Are they suing in a eu courts though ? Are they suing anyone else as others also ran late as well ?

Who else is consistently under delivering in the same volumes that AZ are? I'm in the EU and haven't heard of any of the other pharma companies doing this? I would have presumed if other companies were only delivering a third of what they committed to it would be in the news but I'm interested to hear which companies you know are doing this?

50,000 are being sent to Germany so that accounts for the rest.

But OP was told this upthread so it’s very strange behavior.

@OuiOuiKitty pfizer was late delivering as well , they all are
In uk moderna haven't delivered many and are behind , its not easy producing vaccines
How far behind are az on delivering now as eu isn't using for all ages so how many do they need?
What do they want to achieve by suing ?
If you were a vaccine company bearing in mind we are likely to be needing these for years , you would be very wary about what deals you sign going forward