Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots

[Whichjab]

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/astrazeneca-vaccine-side-effects-blood-clots-under-40-b931498.html

This is concerning, especially as there is limited research into combining vaccinations. I feel that the trust in vaccination is being eroded. I have always been pro vacc but feeling much less so atm.
I'm not sure I will get my second jab now.

I just don't get that because if someone is worried about the risks they shouldn't have any of the vaccinations. All have different risks as does many of our childhood vaccinations. To me at the current rate of 3.5 million jabs a week. Probably half of those AZ at the moment. The difference between if there was 1 or 5 clots a week would be irrelevant. If I was worried about those kind of risks I wouldn't have the jab.

@TruelyWonder

I just don't get that because if someone is worried about the risks they shouldn't have any of the vaccinations. All have different risks as does many of our childhood vaccinations. To me at the current rate of 3.5 million jabs a week. Probably half of those AZ at the moment. The difference between if there was 1 or 5 clots a week would be irrelevant. If I was worried about those kind of risks I wouldn't have the jab.

Where are you getting 3.5 million from? The current weekly average is just over 100,000k per day. And we have no idea how many have been AZ. That is the problem. No one can calculate the risk.

@Bunbury952 the 100000 per day is only first doses and does not include second.

@YukoandHiro

I'm 38 and have had my first AZ. Having my second on Monday. I'm slightly anxious but clotting is a huge risk if you actually get covid. The problem is our brains can't calculate risk properly. Getting the jab is still the safest thing to do. If lots of people choose no vaxx (as is their right) the chance of extended lockdowns into the next decade goes on and on. It's risk vs reward. We're not only doing it for ourselves but to get society working again.

The research into the safest options is of course ongoing and the vaxx programme will be tweaked every year

As the blood clot appears to be due to an antibody, if you didn't have a problem the first time you don't have the antibody and won't have a reaction the second time either.

@Belladonna12 there have been four cases post second jab in the UK in the latest figures (see Guardian story earlier this week). One imagines this number will rise as more (younger?) people have their second AZ.

@YukoandHiro

OP but what about the young and not healthy? I have two underlying conditions... I don't know, I feel anxious but it still feels like the right thing to do. If I die unexpectedly I will leave two DDs (one only six months and who doesn't take a bottle) so my anxiety is not small fry. I just feel like it's still really important to get done.

Maybe you do have an underlying condition and don't know it. The people who reacted badly to the vaccine had an underlying condition and didn't know it.

@Belladonna12 sorry my post was confusing. I have asthma and insulin resistance so had my first jab in Feb. Yes you're right that those who had a reaction may have had a condition they didn't know about.
Anyway I will be going through with second AZ next week despite feeling anxious. I'm happy with the balance of risk.

[quote YukoandHiro]@Belladonna12 there have been four cases post second jab in the UK in the latest figures (see Guardian story earlier this week). One imagines this number will rise as more (younger?) people have their second AZ.[/quote]
Where the four cases definitely related to antibodies against a platelet protein cP4? If not, it could just be a coincidence. If you vaccinate millions of people some will inevitably experience a blood clot that is completely unrelated to the vaccine.

Thank you @LittleRen. But if we are trying to work out the rate of clots, which mostly happen after the first dose, we should surely focus on the first dose total?

@Bunbury952 if you follow the yellow card report week for week then it tells you roughly how many new AZ doses have been given in each week. I worked it out last Thursday, it was 800,000 in the week they were reporting at the time. If any of those caused blood clots then they would presumable start to be reported around a week or two later. But yes, there is a lot of guessing involved when trying to interpret the figures as we don't have enough detail.

Sorry - I meant new first doses. So tomorrow's report will be interesting.

Ah thank you @Schulte! Do we know which age group they were targeting that week? Was it still the over 50s?

As someone who lost a parent to covid, I completely disagree that it's somehow disrespectful or inappropriate to discuss the AZ clotting issue. It's a serious safety concern.

In my country, AZ and J&J are available to the over 50s only. However, it seems our government is trying to get around that recommendation from the regulator because we have a large order of J&J due to arrive after all of our over 50s have been done. I hope it will be offered to younger people on an opt-in basis rather than "take this or get to the back of the queue".

You can't compare the weekly first dose number to yellow card clots cases week though. The clot cases weekly are reported dates like with daily death figures. They could have happened weeks ago when around 200k to 300k people a day got AZ.

You would need to compare it to the overall number of people under say 50 that have had AZ. To the overall number of clots the under 50s have had.

I'm 48 and have the autoimmune disorder antiphospholipid syndrome. My GP has agreed to let me have the Pfizer jab when it is available as I am not comfortable having AZ. I am lucky- many GP's can't or won't offer this.
I believe the only clinical indications for having an alternative vaccine in over 30s are history of thrombocytopaenia or antiphospholipid syndrome- these may well increase your risk of having a serious blood clot from the AZ vaccine.
Also as the infection rates are so low in the uk at the moment, my risk of a blood clot from the vaccine, with APS, would be higher than my current risk of an ICU admission from catching Covid.
In someone with no relevant medical history, the benefit of the vaccine would almost certainly outweigh the risk. AZ is still remarkably safe for the vast majority.

@TruelyWonder

You can't compare the weekly first dose number to yellow card clots cases week though. The clot cases weekly are reported dates like with daily death figures. They could have happened weeks ago when around 200k to 300k people a day got AZ.

You would need to compare it to the overall number of people under say 50 that have had AZ. To the overall number of clots the under 50s have had.

Oh forgot to add.

As the weekly cases of clots are just when registered as reported you need to take into act all the millions of CEV people too. Some sadly may have been very vulnerable to getting clots. So it isn't just the younger healthy people you are looking at necessarily. When looking at risk for health young you need this data too.

In someone with no relevant medical history, the benefit of the vaccine would almost certainly outweigh the risk. AZ is still remarkably safe for the vast majority

The risk from the vaccine increase compared to the risks from covid in areas with low prevalence. The risk in Jan from covid is not the same as now. The vaccination risk remains steady.

AZ is safe for the majority but it is cold comfort if you are the person affected, especially when the debate isn't AZ or nothing. It's AZ oflr another safer vaccine

I'm 29 and due my second AZ next week - received first in feb as unpaid carer.

Not sure whether to go ahead with it, but very much doubt I will be given an alternative. I suffer from cluster headaches as it is, so would be hard to differentiate this from the clot symptoms. And severe health anxiety on top of this. Not ideal!

@TruelyWonder

You can't compare the weekly first dose number to yellow card clots cases week though. The clot cases weekly are reported dates like with daily death figures. They could have happened weeks ago when around 200k to 300k people a day got AZ.

You would need to compare it to the overall number of people under say 50 that have had AZ. To the overall number of clots the under 50s have had.

Correct, which is why I said there’s a lot of guesswork involved. For those of us trying to figure it out, and in the absence of all the information, it’s the best we can do though.

@whataballbag I have health anxiety too. It's awful, and I totally feel the same. I'm guessing I'm just going to take a low threshold on getting checked out

@Whichjab you're right about the fluctuating covid risk but don't forget it could switch up to high transmission again very quickly. Indeed, most experts predict a third wave among the young but with a lower hospitalisation rate (of which many will suffer long covid). That's why it's so hard to calculate any particular risk level as the risk that you're trying to prevent (death or life changing illness from covid) changes all the time

[quote YukoandHiro]@Whichjab you're right about the fluctuating covid risk but don't forget it could switch up to high transmission again very quickly. Indeed, most experts predict a third wave among the young but with a lower hospitalisation rate (of which many will suffer long covid). That's why it's so hard to calculate any particular risk level as the risk that you're trying to prevent (death or life changing illness from covid) changes all the time[/quote]
That's exactly what I was trying to say but you've said it it a much more articulate way.
For me, with antiphospholipid syndrome, I feel that the added risk of clotting with AZ versus the current low risk of covid means that risks of AZ outweigh the benefit and luckily my GP agrees so I'm waiting of Pfizer. Unfortunately not everyone in my position is being allowed to choose and that's unfair.
I do believe we should be taking a more cautious stance as it is early days

I really wish I'd found this thread earlier. This is just my anecdotal experience and adds nothing to the stats/arguments being put forward but I thought it was interesting if a bit disturbing.

I became eligible for vaccination a few weeks ago (age 47). However, as I'm in the middle of some really tight deadlines in the final year of my degree (I'm a very mature student!) and can't afford to be ill for a few days, I was really pleased that my local vax centre were supplying Moderna. However, when I attended my appointment everyone over thirty was being given AZ.

When I got in the booth, the nurse (who was lovely) gave a short talk on the risks of clots with AZ comparing the risks with the pill. I mentioned I'd never been able to take the combined pill due to adverse blood pressure effects and that I'd been hospitalised with pre-eclampsia twice and monitored for Hellp syndrome (I'd already tried to check with my GP if AZ was ok but I'd been unable to get a phone consult.) The nurse then checked with the 'matron' if my medical history was an issue - the matron said no I was safe to have AZ and then left me with the nurse and volunteer.

What happened after that was really weird. I grumbled a bit and said I would prefer the Moderna but as I was unlikely to get it I might as well have the AZ as I was already there. I rolled up my sleeve but the nurse didn't move and just stared at me and proceeded to spell out very carefully that I should speak to my GP as I might be able to get an alternative. We had a back and forth for about 10 minutes, with me saying I thought that was unlikely and him saying it would really be worth a try. In the end, I just gave up and left as he seemed so reluctant to vaccinate me - I started to feel like he knew something I didn't!

Anyway, I'm speaking to my GP this week, who I have no doubt will tell me AZ is perfectly safe and I will be back where I started!

That’s interesting. In truth it doesn’t seem like anyone knows the risk factors the platelet issue. I guess the matron was doing her job.

I also personally would be more wary of the AZ vaccine in your case or if I had an autoimmune condition or on the pill. Again purely anecdotally.

I guess we shall find out in a year when we unpick it all.