Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots

[Whichjab]

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/astrazeneca-vaccine-side-effects-blood-clots-under-40-b931498.html

This is concerning, especially as there is limited research into combining vaccinations. I feel that the trust in vaccination is being eroded. I have always been pro vacc but feeling much less so atm.
I'm not sure I will get my second jab now.

The risk is about more than death.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(21)00123-5/fulltext

Do you have a link to the FT article in question please? Much appreciated as there are quite a few.

@Fieldofmemes - I’m aware of the deaths, they are not being kept secret. I chose to be vaccinated now and was given AZ. Obviously, if the country were flooded with Pfizer and Moderna vaccines and everyone could be offered those now, I would have been very happy to have one of those instead. You seem to think alternative vaccines are available in vast quantities at the click of a country’s fingers or that it’s fine for everyone to hang around and wait, despite the fact billions of people around the world are still waiting for vaccines and many people disagree with you that fewer people will die if we do things your way.

@Walkaround I understand what you are saying and understand the risks of Covid are real. That’s why I’m hesitant to talk anyone out of getting their jab.

But what concerns me is that AZ won’t be used in the

@Bunbury952 - it’s perfectly reasonable for you to be concerned. It would be odd to be unconcerned by either covid or the risks of vaccination, imvho. The fact remains, covid definitely causes more chaos and human misery than mass vaccination has done. I hope the timing works out that under 40s do get some choice of vaccine, but I really don’t buy into the hysteria of those who think there is some kind of secretive and murderous plot behind the current roll out.

Also, a lot of people are perfectly happy to look at an extremely unlikely possibility and conclude that as it is extremely unlikely, they are not that bothered by it, rather than complicating this by trying to work out whether they would rather not risk the extremely rare occurrence and would rather instead risk something different and more wide-ranging in its possible consequences, the risk of which keeps going up and down.

@Walkaround

Also, a lot of people are perfectly happy to look at an extremely unlikely possibility and conclude that as it is extremely unlikely, they are not that bothered by it, rather than complicating this by trying to work out whether they would rather not risk the extremely rare occurrence and would rather instead risk something different and more wide-ranging in its possible consequences, the risk of which keeps going up and down.

Oh how I envy those people. I really do. I also know people who have never worried about catching Covid and who are now rushing to book their jabs just so they can (hopefully) go on holiday this summer as they’re also unbothered by (or oblivious to) the risk of AZ. And I’m actually jealous.

Thank you @Walkaround, I hope we get an alternative too. I don’t believe there’s a conspiracy and I really do feel for the scientists trying to make these decisions. But I also worry that the government may be pressuring them.

There were 41 deaths following the clots in Britain, the MHRA said, an increase of 9 from last week’s figures, although experts say historic cases might still be feeding through to the totals, and the clots are set to remain a rare event.

Please not the words historic cases. As in from cases involving older people.

Also a EMA expert said today that regarding the idea that cases were higher in younger women than the general population. They have looked at Germany for example and found that two thirds of the AZ was given to women. Therefore it wasn't surprising more cases of clots appeared on women. It was just proportionate to the gender of the amount of people vaccinated.

So between these two bits of information and our weekly yellow card updates 🤷‍♀️

If you are worried about variants ( located first in Brazil or India) AZ is looking great . As well as previous proof against other variants.

Please stop talking about the risks of Covid OR the "inconvenience" of slowing down the roadmap...

I take it you’re not one of the posters who’ve been shouting about the thousands of lives lost due to lockdown. If you are I hope you’ve added those figures into your risk/benefit analysis, as presumably coming out of lockdown would have a significant effect on those figures.

I'm 31 and it worries me, but whenever I try to talk about it I get shut down. I'm not saying I don't want want it, I'm very pro vac, have wanted the vaccine since the pandemic started. But I do want to talk about it, I've been called stupid and ridiculous for just saying I'm kind of worried being 1 year out of the limit. I'm not allowed to be on the combined pill because of my weight either, so I feel I don't even know how much I should worry.

@WrongWayApricot

I'm 31 and it worries me, but whenever I try to talk about it I get shut down. I'm not saying I don't want want it, I'm very pro vac, have wanted the vaccine since the pandemic started. But I do want to talk about it, I've been called stupid and ridiculous for just saying I'm kind of worried being 1 year out of the limit. I'm not allowed to be on the combined pill because of my weight either, so I feel I don't even know how much I should worry.

Sorry if people have called you names. There is no need for that. People should definitely be talking about any worries and allowed to without abuse.

I only get stroppy of people are posting false information or fake news stuff. Oh and the whole taking up appointments then walking out if the wrong vaccine. Prat suggestions and acts.

Anyway the main thing to remember is nobody here is a expert with all the information. Most people are just posting what information is released or their own back of envelope calculations. Plus a lot of other countries have different supply of different vaccines. Are at different age groups in their vaccination programs. These things affect the decisions too.

The way I see it with your age is that these things would have been though about. So if the stop is 30 chances are the actual higher risk calculation is more likely to be from 25 and under. Not 30 and under. No expert though. Just my thoughts obviously I am no expert etc but that would be a logical thing to do.

@TruelyWonder

If you are worried about variants ( located first in Brazil or India) AZ is looking great . As well as previous proof against other variants.

Yes, but it's probably worse than useless against the SA variant (efficacy so low that change in behaviour due to being vaccinated would likely actually increase transmission).

Except, Truly wonder, they haven't actually updated the risk/benefit calculations to account for the recent doubling of VITT cases.

Some people are just trying to get their heads around the little data we have, which is difficult.

Zero people over the age of 90 (and only 5 over the age of 70) have been recorded as dying from AstraZeneca related blood clots, while there have been 14 fatalities under the age of 39.

Is that because the deaths in the older age groups have been missed? Perhaps that age group predominantly received Pfizer?

That data goes up to the 21st April when the general population under 40 were not being called up for jabs so are those 14 deaths disproportionate?

If the blood clot issue is only affecting certain age groups, is it reasonable to use the total AZ shots given when calculating risk for the younger groups?

Back in March they said vaccine supply for April was going to fall and less first shots would be given in April to concentrate on second shots so I would expect the number of clot deaths to be recorded each week to fall, not increase.

1/85k is already pretty high. Then dp and would be 4 doses altogether.
Also it isnt/wasnt clear there would be an issue with dose 2 as well.

QueenStromba

And that comment about the South African variant shows your basic lack of understanding.

The trial involved a 3/4 gap with the AZ vaccine. Which is widely known isn't enough time for the antibodies to build to full strength with AZ

It was a lad dish experiment not a real world on. So no TCell and other vaccination immune system memory functions to give it a hand. Which is what you get with real world data. Something which AZ excels at making.

Like all the other vaccines AZ is likely to have very good protection from hospitalisation and deaths still. The trial you are talking about was only measuring transmission.

Plus most importantly if you look at all the vaccines AZ is actually proven to protect against more variants than most alternatives. Also has a higher real world protection against hospitalisation and death. Pfizer is only better than AZ at transmission. The numbers are of course very close still

@QueenStromba

Except, Truly wonder, they haven't actually updated the risk/benefit calculations to account for the recent doubling of VITT cases.

They may not have published or announced their latest risk assessment but as they said will be constantly monitoring the situation and data. If you think they just have a peek at yellow card and other information one a month or something. You don't understand how these things work at all.

They could announce any minute a change in AZ usage or roll out of course. However looking at the numbers so far and what Europe have been saying recently I doubt much change is needed. The only real life possibility at the moment that could warrant a change is because cases are getting so low. That means the risks from the virus in all ages are lowering. Obviously having an effect on the risk calculation.

@TruelyWonder

QueenStromba

And that comment about the South African variant shows your basic lack of understanding.

The trial involved a 3/4 gap with the AZ vaccine. Which is widely known isn't enough time for the antibodies to build to full strength with AZ

It was a lad dish experiment not a real world on. So no TCell and other vaccination immune system memory functions to give it a hand. Which is what you get with real world data. Something which AZ excels at making.

Like all the other vaccines AZ is likely to have very good protection from hospitalisation and deaths still. The trial you are talking about was only measuring transmission.

Plus most importantly if you look at all the vaccines AZ is actually proven to protect against more variants than most alternatives. Also has a higher real world protection against hospitalisation and death. Pfizer is only better than AZ at transmission. The numbers are of course very close still

How many biology degrees have you got? I would imagine fewer than me. I'm referring to the real life SA study where AZ was shown to have only 10% efficacy.

Oh, and if you're going to accuse people of being thick, maybe check you've spelt your username correctly first.

@AppleJane

Some people are just trying to get their heads around the little data we have, which is difficult.

Zero people over the age of 90 (and only 5 over the age of 70) have been recorded as dying from AstraZeneca related blood clots, while there have been 14 fatalities under the age of 39.

Is that because the deaths in the older age groups have been missed? Perhaps that age group predominantly received Pfizer?

That data goes up to the 21st April when the general population under 40 were not being called up for jabs so are those 14 deaths disproportionate?

If the blood clot issue is only affecting certain age groups, is it reasonable to use the total AZ shots given when calculating risk for the younger groups?

Back in March they said vaccine supply for April was going to fall and less first shots would be given in April to concentrate on second shots so I would expect the number of clot deaths to be recorded each week to fall, not increase.

As I have said they are literally saying historically cases may appear in the data. Because they are looking back over medical data and have asked people to report any past cases of clots not previously reported. This means you can't say the cases are rising for any given period. They haven't published the actual dates of the clots. You are just seeing reported dates

@QueenStromba

Oh, and if you're going to accuse people of being thick, maybe check you've spelt your username correctly first.

What you think I don't know. It is like that to prove the old mumsnet trap. Plus people always recognise Truely when I fancy a name change every few years ❤

@TruelyWonder

If you are worried about variants ( located first in Brazil or India) AZ is looking great . As well as previous proof against other variants.

Are you using this twitter screenshot as proof?

And do you know what historic means?

Please not the words historic cases. As in from cases involving older people

How many biology degrees have you got? I would imagine fewer than me. I'm referring to the real life SA study where AZ was shown to have only 10% efficacy.

*I was also talking about the South Africa trial. Which proves my point you don't know the facts or don't understand at all.

The virus was mixed in with blood samples in a dish. This was done with too short a gap. Oblvoiusly no immune system help too. The body doesn't use just antibodies to fight a virus. The vaccines also help build a immune system memory. Our bodies are an amazing thing. That is why the vaccines are all appearing to work better than some lab data showed in real life.*

The screen shot is someone talking about the latest data soon to be released. Like many variant or vaccine related studies the poster there has been proven to be very accurate with their updates. Also explains the latest information wonderfully. I would recommend people that are worried follow on Twitter. They will answer your questions better than any of us on mumsnet.

Sorry yes historic could be better worded. I was just quickly late at night repeating the rough words of a PHE expert. Basically what I am addressing is we are not seeing any age ranges suddenly go up this week or whatever. It is just the way information is being reported. Unfortunately until we stand back and look in after everyone is vaccinated we will never have a clear picture. All the experts can do is constantly watch the data and calculate.