Alternatives to AstraZeneca vaccine for under 40s “could be considered” amid rise in blood clots

[Whichjab]

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/astrazeneca-vaccine-side-effects-blood-clots-under-40-b931498.html

This is concerning, especially as there is limited research into combining vaccinations. I feel that the trust in vaccination is being eroded. I have always been pro vacc but feeling much less so atm.
I'm not sure I will get my second jab now.

@bookworm1632 there is no comparable pressure on people to take the pill. It is ridiculous to suggest that.

1. There are choices of contraception. There are even choices of types of contraceptive pill. There is no choice of vaccine!!!!
2. Informed consent: the figures which have been released by MHRA about AZ have been highly misleading and not broken down by age group risk OR healthy versus clinically vulnerable (remember "1 in a million risk" which was all over the press?) Information about the risks from the Pill is widely available and the risk is NOT unknown or subject to constant revision as the UK "official" AZ risk appears to be
3. No one is threatening young people that they won't be able to travel abroad/ go to a gig / get a particular job / participate in society in other ways if they don't go on the pill!!

People need to stop with the pill comparisons. It is a tool of persuasion and in the context of young, healthy people dying from a vaccine it is actually irresponsible to make this comparison.

@Bunbury952 I agree. The FT has been excellent in reporting the facts around this - the ONLY British newspaper that hasn't blindly pushed the government line nor treated its readers like idiots where AZ is concerned.

@Roonerspismed totally agree. Our press seems increasingly to be behaving as though we live in the PRC, not the UK.

@Whichjab

The press can be gagged if it's a matter of national security.

The big problem is that millions of people now have had the AZ jab, the ramifications for now saying its not recommended for under 40s (50s) will be massive in terms of trust and uptake of second vaccination.

This is exactly what's going on!

Has anyone heard anything about this JCVI meeting yesterday - the only mention I can find of it is the Sun from Wednesday.

@EmpressSuiko the information regarding four clots occurring after a second dose is in the government yellow card report / summary www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

I’m not surprised it’s not been reported widely in the press as at present there is no alternative being offered other than to under 30s which has the knock on effect of creating justified worry but also potentially derailing the vaccination effort. It’s so difficult, as a slow down in vaccinations will cost lives so on a society level the AZ benefits outweigh the risks but on an individual level in some age groups the risks may well outweigh the benefits. I just feel so sad to think that young otherwise healthy people who had a very low risk from covid have died after taking the vaccination when other countries have suspended it, though I do understand the complexity of the issue. However I feel that many people are choosing to take it without access to up to date data meaning they aren’t able to make an informed choice while others are understandably over the moon to be able to get the AZ and are well aware of the risks but happy to take the risk. We all see risk very differently. I do wish there was more transparency regarding the number of doses given in each age group though, as the number of clots per age group isn’t that informative without information regarding the number of doses given. I do wonder what will happen regarding second doses in the 30s if a different vaccination is recommended for this age group. I’m grateful to have some protection from the first dose but feel very unsure about the second as the data is forever changing making it difficult to make an informed choice. I’m hoping more information will become available regarding how long the protection from the first dose lasts.

Check out the link. Is it true, who else is posting that JJ no more clots'?

babylonbee.com/news/johnson-and-johnson-rolls-out-new-no-more-clots-vaccine

FDA has approved it accoridng to the link

@Emma2021

Check out the link. Is it true, who else is posting that JJ no more clots'?

babylonbee.com/news/johnson-and-johnson-rolls-out-new-no-more-clots-vaccine

FDA has approved it accoridng to the link

So America approves the adenovirus vaccine that is made by an American company. AZ is the same type of vaccine - but it's made by an European (English/Swedish) company.

Have you actually read it... it’s a spoof article. Very funny...

As a side issue, the 40-50 year olds really are the invisible ignored doesn't matter group, aren't they.

Just suppose it really did turn out there's an issue - any issue, rare side effect, less effective against new strains, turns your face purple and furry, or whatever.

So if that did happen, it's a really rather big fuck you to the 40-50s.

Not included in first phase of vaccine rollout....because apparently lower risk from Covid (untrue, as the risk rises from 40/45).

But then - when there's a potential and so far very rare problem with any of the vaccines, told their risk is higher than under 40s...!

So if that did happen, it's a really rather big fuck you to the 40-50s.

This. This. This.

Not included in first phase of vaccine rollout....because apparently lower risk from Covid (untrue, as the risk rises from 40/45).

It is not supported by existing evidence.

The risk of Covid consistently doubles with every 6-7 years of age. There is no acceleration post 40/45.

David Spielhalter previously commented that the risk of Covid becomes statistically significant over the age of 50 (as per the graph in the link):

www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3259

There have been repeated news reports and press conferences that kept stressing, something like (the exact wording changing but the message staying the same):

deaths under 40 remain low. They have reported this way since very early on.

And, the data has consistently shown the risks increase particularly from 45.

The NHS health check is at 40 for a reason. Many people in their 40s have undiagnosed underlying conditions. These conditions more commonly start to develop from 40+.

Ok then. Just suppose it really is the case that the risk increases at 50 (and not, as shown by global data, 40/45).... Why then the talk of giving a different vaccine to under 40s, and not under 50s?

Either, 40-50 are higher risk from Covid (and should therefore be in priority groups 1-9, i.e. for any boosters, etc).

Or, they're not increased risk from Covid, and therefore (if there really is any issue with a vaccine), be included in the groups getting an alternative.

One way or the other.

@Tealightsandd
sorry to derail thread but what what NHS check at 40? I'm nearly 50 and have never been offered any check and as far as I am aware I have no underlying health condition ....

Your GP should have offered it at the point where you turned 40 and some pharmacies offer them too. I would go ask (if you want one, that is). I’m sure it’s not too late!

Just chiming in to say that I'm 38 and feel hugely left out! My health board have a good stock of Moderna so are now bypassing the 30+ age range and skipping straight on down to 18-29s.

How is this fair? Those if us in our 30s don't count? My DCs fine to look after themselves if I get poorly with Covid?

Feel really angry about it but seems we are also being overlooked by the JVCI now too. Wish they'd announce what happened in the meeting yesterday!

I've had a go at trying to estimate the blood clot cases by age compared to vaccine doses by age.
It cant be accurate because the vaccine data 1. doesn't specify what vaccine was given, and 2. We cant be sure about matching dates of vaccine to dates of the reported cases.

With those 2 big caveats:

NHS England has published data on total vaccines by 5 year age groups, up to April 7th, by which time there had been 26.8m first doses. (www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-vaccinations/)

The MHRA data on blood clots etc goes to April 21st. But seeing as there is a delay between reactions and receipt of vaccine, perhaps that doesnt create a huge problem for comparing the 2 sets of data. We cant know (very annoying that obvs the MHRA can know, and yet have chosen not to tell us).

Biggest problem with the data is the vaccine data doesnt split by vaccine type. However the MHRA say that by April 21, 66% of all first jabs were AZ. However, that 66% might not be evenly spread between the age groups. We know that Pfizer was generally used for the older group, so it may be that the % of AZ vaccine used in the younger groups was greater than 66%.

Using the NHS England data on vaccines by age group and comparing it to the MHRA table on clots by age (incidentally, that table is only in the web version, not the PDF), gets the following blood clot incident rates, expressed as the number of jabs per clotting incident. I'm showing a range. The lower jabs per incident figure is if we assume only 66% of all vaccines given to that age group up to April 7th were AZ, and the higher figure is if we assume 100% were. The real figure will be somewhere in between, but I dont know where (and it will be at a different point for each age group - I suspect it will be towards the higher end of the stated range for the younger group and the lower end for the older group).

Under 50: one incident per 56, 590 to 85,740 jabs
50-59: one incident per 76,900 to 116,500 jabs
60-69: one incident per 120,270 to 182,230 jabs
70-79: one incident per 154,300 to 233,800 jabs
80+: one incident per 297,040 to 450,070 jabs

I cant look at sub groups under 50 as the data on jabs lumps all under 50s into one single group.

@Puffthemagicdragongoestobed

Does anyone know what happens if you refuse your second jab? Whilst I am keen to be fully vaccinated against COVID I am not so keen taking the risk of a blood clot. The risk of around 2 per 100000 for my age group just feels too high. I am early 40s and healthy. I had the usual reaction of a light flu for 1.5 days after the first jab. I am supposed to have my appointment for the second jab tomorrow and now I am agonising!!

Just to update. I decided to go ahead with the second jab. I went to the appointment and the nurse was incredibly kind when I raised my worries. She said it's completely my own decision. She also said that they do not mix vaccines so even under 30s who had AstraZeneca as their first vaccine would get it as their second jab. In the end I decided to go for it as the risk of blood clots is still very slim, and frankly I wanted it out of the way. It's a tough decision and no-one should be swayed one way or another.

@Craftermum

Just chiming in to say that I'm 38 and feel hugely left out! My health board have a good stock of Moderna so are now bypassing the 30+ age range and skipping straight on down to 18-29s.

How is this fair? Those if us in our 30s don't count? My DCs fine to look after themselves if I get poorly with Covid?

Feel really angry about it but seems we are also being overlooked by the JVCI now too. Wish they'd announce what happened in the meeting yesterday!

I read about this on another thread yesterday - in Wales, right? I'm the same age as you and can't believe they are just skipping over the 30s group there to prioritise the youngest! I'm in England, not sure if it is happening here... but at 38 or even 35 surely we are at much more risk from covid complications than someone who is 18 or 20?

At 38 I also feel right in the middle of the risks - close enough to the 40s to feel at an increased risk if I get covid, and yet only a few years older than others who will be given an alternative vaccine. I've been really looking forward to my jab for months too so just feel very confused.

The BBC have finally mentioned the higher clot rate in younger adults on their live news feed www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-56939981?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=608bfa4e30a9c902dd517a94%26Higher%20clot%20rate%20in%20younger%20adults%2C%20says%20UK%20medicines%20regulator%262021-04-30T13%3A25%3A28.336Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:74d2e430-a00d-482b-bcdf-2afc8e96b614&pinned_post_asset_id=608bfa4e30a9c902dd517a94&pinned_post_type=share

@Fieldofmemes I agree! Meanwhile the French papers are full of stories about affected families filing lawsuits against AZ.

I’m not sure if we will hear anything today from the JCVI. I’m getting the feeling they are trying to rush through as many 40+ jabs as possible before making a decision on the 30+.

I’m getting the feeling they are trying to rush through as many 40+ jabs as possible before making a decision on the 30+.

This is exactly what I think too. If they made an announcement now, it would risk increased vaccine hesitancy in the over 40s.

I understand their dilemma and especially the supply issues and possibly slowing down the roll out, and what that would mean for infection rates. It is definitely starting to sound they would have no hesitation in raising the age limit for AZ if supply wasn't an issue, though, and that makes it even trickier.

Where does this leave the 40/s who have had the vaccine with regard to the boosters???