Who is still dying?

[MaxHanno]

Do we know who is dying from Covid19 now? Is it still the elderly and clinically vunerable even though they may have been vaccinated? Or is it unvaccinated younger people?

www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2386

This article/study is saying its 60% less cancer referrals.

www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n339

Study for surgery back log. I mean I could go on forever.

Yes delays caused by being overrun by cases. The nhs can’t very much help that. Services are now getting up and running wherever possible. They’re not sitting idle for the sake of it they’re working to catch up. And it’s taking time because of extra distancing and cleaning measures etc.

If we’d locked down sooner each time, the problem would have been much smaller.

These are the ONS recorded deaths per week of 2021 by age, in absolute terms and by percentage split. The reduction in the proportion of the over seventies is very obvious, though not perhaps as strong as you’d naively hope. My apologies for the atrocious colour scheme - I CBA to change it from Excel’s bizarre default.

@BrilliantBetty

Someone I know recently died after a short battle with aggressive cancer.

When tested (after death) it came up C19 positive and that was recorded as the cause of death. Even though no symptoms of covid and lots of side effects of the horrible cancer, which is why they died.

Misreporting imo!!

Doctors get very clear guidance on how to fill in a death certificate. The primary cause of death should be just that. I’d be surprised if that wasn’t the case and it was recorded incorrectly. Covid affects the whole system, perhaps in a way you weren’t aware of.

I’m pointing this out because I think it might help to think it had at least been recorded correctly. Very sad all round, whatever the cause of death.

The article I linked quite clearly states that this hasn't been the case for nearly a quarter of recorded covid deaths, whatever guidance doctors get.

@Blubellwood

Yes delays caused by being overrun by cases. The nhs can’t very much help that. Services are now getting up and running wherever possible. They’re not sitting idle for the sake of it they’re working to catch up. And it’s taking time because of extra distancing and cleaning measures etc.

If we’d locked down sooner each time, the problem would have been much smaller.

You can't keep stating your opinion as fact when people are telling you that their personal experiences are the complete opposite!

about 1400 people die daily in “peacetime” and no one bats an eyelid
It is even worse than that according to this (1600)

www.visualcapitalist.com/how-many-people-die-each-day/

How long are they going to keep publishing daily deaths and cases?

How about they break down all daily deaths from all causes the we can see if Covid is the only thing to worry about..

I am agreeing that there are still some delays and that is unfortunate but it’s not being done out of purpose or spite it because people are worshipping some kind of Covid altar.

The truth is more complex than that.

Some services have started up, many have long waiting list. Mainly due to the fact the nhs were overwhelmed due to late lockdowns, partially due to Covid measures making appointments take longer and some procedures more tricky right now. What I’m saying is everything isn’t stopped just for them hell of it.

It also didn’t help that we sent into crisis with waiting lists at an all time high. The delays are due to issues that existed before Covid too. Note my word too I’m not saying only. People tend to jump on one sentence of a post sometimes.

This thread offers insight into the problem we have snd its complexities

twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1382619205858684928?s=21

I didn’t say there wasn’t a backlog. I said things hadn’t stopped and the backlog id understandable.

My main point is just that lockdowns weren’t the thing that caused this backlog. The overwhelming number of cases did, that and the fact there was already a backlog pre Covid that is now so muchworse.

The nhs being closed is definitely a regional issue.

I've had access to GPS, bloods, X-rays, ultrasound, 2 iUDs, a smear, 3 face to face consultant appointments and 2 phone consults between just ds and I past year.

It's infuriating that others being denied. This is meant to be an equal free at the point of access service for all.

I think the figures are actually worse than reported. For example, DD had a phone consultation at 17.5 weeks after referral so she'll be down as having "started treatment with 18 weeks". Whereas actually what happened was that the consultant said "I can't do anything over the phone; she should rest and take paracetomal", which doesn't really count as treatment in my book. Same with multiple subsequent appointments. I think after over a year we've worked out that resting and taking paracetomal is not working - but presumably this looks like successful care on NHS stats as she keeps having appointments (so ticks a box) and then being shunted down to the back of the list again. But all this is still taking up consultant time. I would really like someone at a higher level to actually look at who effectively time is used and re-prioritise the resources that are available.

We are currently fighting my Grannies death cert. Was recorded as covid which she caught in hospital following a serious stroke. We were told prior to the covid test that she sadly wouldn’t make it & she never did wake up. But she hung on for 5 days. On day 4, she tested positive for COVID & she found it increasingly hard to breathe. She passed on day 5.

She died of a stroke, she was gone long before her positive test but just not physically. Covid sped up a horribly slow process that was already happening.

My mum is furious it was recorded as COVID as she feels it’s categorically untrue. We are normal, sensible people. We think COVID is real & awful & have supported all lockdowns etc. But we do think our family members death should be recorded accurately.

Your poor mum and you HolmeH.

My neighbour and friend is in the same situation with her Dad. He was 82 and he had a massive heart attack. The family were told he wouldn't live and he didn't although he survived 4 days, tested positive on day 3, died the day after. Death cert. says Covid.

On the other side to the more far right then Laurence Fox Telegraph's reporting, we have the fact that many covid caused deaths weren't recorded as covid. The early days before widespread testing many were down as heart attacks, strokes, or pneumonia.

Then there's the deaths after the government decided to only record covid deaths within 28 days. Lots die from it after 28 days.

As for NHS delays. 40% of covid infections were caught in hospital. It simply wasn't safe for vulnerable patients.

@LucilleTheVampireBat

Your poor mum and you HolmeH.

My neighbour and friend is in the same situation with her Dad. He was 82 and he had a massive heart attack. The family were told he wouldn't live and he didn't although he survived 4 days, tested positive on day 3, died the day after. Death cert. says Covid.

Covid causes heart attacks.

What possible reason do hospitals/ the NHS have to still keep refusing treatment and delaying operations?? There’s a tiny handful of people in hospital with serious Covid now. This is getting absolutely ridiculous.

@DollyParton2

What possible reason do hospitals/ the NHS have to still keep refusing treatment and delaying operations?? There’s a tiny handful of people in hospital with serious Covid now. This is getting absolutely ridiculous.

It's backlog. Consultants are currently working through all the people they didn't see when hospitals were shut for elective outpatients, plus they still have a backlog of treatments from the first lockdown. Unless you are an emergency, you will just get pushed back. And of course the backlog continues to build with new patients, so once you've had your one appointment you've waited months for, you are back to waiting more months for the next one.

@DollyParton2

What possible reason do hospitals/ the NHS have to still keep refusing treatment and delaying operations?? There’s a tiny handful of people in hospital with serious Covid now. This is getting absolutely ridiculous.

40% of covid cases were caught in hospital. I read an article a few weeks ago about one poor man. Cancer patient. Caught covid and died after going in for treatment.

Deaths are low now because of the lockdown but cases are starting to increase again in some areas (because of the open borders). Hospitals are very vulnerable to any increase and they can't afford to drop their guard. They still have covid patients, they're still at risk from asymptomatic cases bringing covid in and spreading it to vulnerable patients.

They're not refusing treatment in any case. There's obviously a huge backlog but they're doing their best.

There's probably also a staff shortage. Lots of doctors and nurses are suffering from long covid. Many haven't been able to go back to work. Others are off with stress and trauma.

Covid causes heart attacks

Ah right. I'll tell my friend that somebody on the internet knows better and that it was covid. Not the fact it was his third heart attack with a history of heart complications stretching back his entire 80 odd year life. Covid. Got it. I keep forgetting covid is the only thing that kills people. Stupid me.

It has become really popular on here to call people right wing if they have an opinion that doesn't support endless lockdowns.

If you don't like the telegraph feel free to read the same information in any other newspaper. Or take a look at the ONS data yourself.

@Radioheadbanz

Yep, my elderly relative who died last year died with Covid, not because of it. She was in and out of the hospital and on end-of-life care and it was 3rd or 4th on her death certificate. She makes up one of the numbers though.

This is what the ONS is detailing out. They are looking at primary and secondary causes, a) and b) on the death certificate, rather than the blanket "mentioned on the certificate"

My DM was 92, but had no other medical issues. She died OF Covid, with heart disease as secondary. She will be a "real" Covid death. My StepDad was 86, he died WITH Covid, as he had dementia, heart disease, prostate cancer, etc etc etc.

I am led to believe, the difference will only be in the region on 20k odd deaths removed from the died OF and moved over to died WITH.

Although, I should mention, he did actually die of Covid due to a care home outbreak, so actually they may keep him as a died OF as he most certainly died within 5 days of catching Covid. It's interesting, but tricky.