Denmark withdraw AZ

[Clotsaway]

Just that really! Just read it in the news.

www.thelocal.dk/20210414/breaking-denmark-to-withdraw-astrazeneca-from-covid-19-vaccination-programme/

Not looking good for AZ as I'm sure a few more counties will follow suit.

Do you take paracetamol? Get pregnant? Drive a car? Life is full of risks. Risk of getting a fatal clot from AZ is so so so so low...still not even linked to the vaccine.

Given that the over 50s have mostly been vaccinated in the U.K., offering only an alternative to the az would mean long delays to the vaccine program afaik. Would that be generally considered acceptable in the U.K.?

@Clotsaway

Uk should adopt the same policy other countries have, offer the az to over 50s and an alternative for those 49 and under, just as they have done so for the 18 to 30 year old age group

Pretty sure we don’t have enough alternatives to do this yet. So the choice for 30-50 year olds would be AZ or wait, and the medical view is AZ is safer than wait.

The risk is creeping up though as more numbers are released. It could be as high as 1 in 40,000 to 1 in 70,000 for under 50s if we look at current figures from the UK and other European countries. More people will die after having the vaccine. The MHRA itself says in its latest report that that’s to be expected. If you feel happy and confident that you won’t be that someone, good for you. Not good for the poor person who gets the blood clot.

Even worse for the many more poor people who get blood clots or worse from covid. I had az jab 1. Waiting for jab 2 because I can do simple maths.

Personally I’d rather wait another month than be given AZ. We’ve been told there’s more Moderna coming and more Pfizer too. Plus, the UK could buy additional supplies.

Yes, murbblurb, I can do maths too. But I, and many others, look at this risk differently.

Even in Denmark, which has taken probably the most cautious approach maybe in the world so far, the health minister has said that the vaccine is safe and effective against Covid. The situation in Denmark is that the cases are so low and the reliance on this vaccine is also low that any risk at all is not worth it in the current danish context. He’s already said that the vaccine may be used here in future if cases start to rise. This decision has effected the vaccine schedule by only 2 weeks; Denmark is really holding its breath over the decision about the j and j vaccine.

What if you had to wait another 6 months? Would that change your risk analysis?

@Schulte

Plus, the UK could buy additional supplies

There’s a worldwide shortage. We’ll get them eventually but not immediately.

It is a decision between which will save more lives: wait for new vaccinations or use the one we have. Many countries don’t have the luxury of that choice.

Given how many people are still perfectly happy to have AZ (or claim to be), it should actually be possible to give those who aren’t the choice to have a different jab if they ask, even with current supplies. Just telling people what it’s going to be when they book would be a start - that’s how it works in other countries. I’d travel 100 miles or more for a Moderna jab.

And other countries have upped their Pfizer orders recently. It is possible.

I’d travel 100 miles or more for a Moderna jab

You're more likely to die or be injured in a car accident on the way there or back. Even if the Danes are right and the risk is as high as 1 in 40,000, that still means 39,999 don't get it and now people know what to look for so even if you were the unfortunate one, you can get treatment quickly.

Denmark’s upped the Pfizer orders recently but bought the option to those last year alongside the original order. The Moderna deliveries will come through to the U.K. over the next few months but the reality is that the U.K. relies heavily on the az just as Denmark relies on the j and j, France banked on Sanofi. These were basically bets and some pay off and some don’t. The U.K. is in a good position but not so good that they could just dismiss the az safely now.

Yes, I see all that. I understand the bigger picture. What I’m asking for is more transparency. We’re trying to make informed decisions as individuals but half of the information is missing (or it’s there somewhere but we have to go digging to find it).

This FT article sums it up re transparency: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/5251e1b9-b88d-4bfc-95fa-29dc34d37652

It’s behind a paywall how ironic 🙂 I agree with you entirely about the level of transparency. The U.K. I think has got worse in the last few years in this regard. WRT transparency over the vaccine risk though I think it’s so new that it would be difficult to get the scientists and mathematicians to agree on the relative level of risk of each vaccine. Never mind when you throw in the different Covid variants. It’s so new, the data isn’t there yet. They do know that Covid is much much more risky than any of the available vaccines.

Odd - it wasn’t behind a pay wall when I found it!

@Schulte annoying I know - FT does that sometimes - I think it's to do with how many people have read or downloaded something.

I too would drive a fair distance to get an alternative vaccine. And I'd happily pay for it. That's just me though... ( NB. @poppycat10 driving risk can be mitigated against by: choice of car, choice of driving style and speed, following rules of the road carefully, even taking public transport instead! Severity of Covid can also be reduced in a lower risk group by taking steps to reduce exposure i.e. reduction of viral load, general health improvements, vitamin supplementation. On the other hand there is no control whatsoever over what a vaccine does once it enters your body. Well, unless you mainline ibuprofen or steroids to stop it working - something we've been told not to do....)

I think all people should now be given a choice and accept they may need to wait if they want a particular vaccine and / or pay in due course. Personally i don't think its fair to cut off at 50 when a number of the blood clot cases have been in people between 50-63

More people will die after having the vaccine

Let's not forget that blood clots, if treated timely will not always result in death.

study was published yesterday claiming rates of CVST (not VIPIT/VITT) much higher in Covid than following the vaccines and trying to lump Pfizer in with AZ

But it does need to be 'lumped in' though. Investigations need to get to the bottom of what is exactly causing these specific clots (and if Covid and Pfizer are creating them too, they need to be brought into the analysis as well)

Otherwise, people are going to wait for an 'alternative' only to find out that these alternatives will put them at risk too.

There absolutely needs to be transparency but the media at the moment appears to be very biased against AZ.

Pfizer and Moderna are not linked to clots. Pfizer has been linked to severe allergic reactions (can't remember the numbers sorry) and Bell's Palsy. This information is really easy to find. Both the AZ and J&J have been linked to the clots / platelets issue.

@TroubleUsedToBeMyBusiness

Pfizer and Moderna are not linked to clots. Pfizer has been linked to severe allergic reactions (can't remember the numbers sorry) and Bell's Palsy. This information is really easy to find. Both the AZ and J&J have been linked to the clots / platelets issue.

Actually Pfizer has been linked to rare clots. It's been reported before and is mentioned in the link below. I'm not certain but I think the same is true for Moderna.

www.ox.ac.uk/news/2021-04-15-risk-rare-blood-clotting-higher-covid-19-vaccines

The risks of clotting from covid itself is about 8 times higher than from vaccines. Including for young people. From the article below:

the Oxford study suggested around a third (30%) of the CVT reports after COVID-19 infection were in people under 30.

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-risk-of-blood-clot-after-coronavirus-is-eight-times-higher-than-after-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-study-12276088

What was the narrative in Dec/Jan? Along the lines of - the vaccine has been thoroughly tested, approval process has not been rushed just condensed.

Goalposts keep moving don't they?