I've decided not to go ahead with my 2nd dose of the AZ vaccine. I'm happy having the Pfizer - will this be allowed?

[Ashleys63]

I've just lost all confidence in the AZ vaccine and regret having it at all.
I know the risks are tiny etc etc but I want a vaccine without these associated risks.
I'm 56 so in one of the top groups but just feel so uneasy about it all now.

@PrivateMe

AZ Vaccine clot = 1 in 600,000. Covid positive clot = 1in 6.

The issue with these type of statements is that even though they are true they ignore a very important fact: the risk is not the same for everybody. So for an 80yo male, high risk from covid and low risk from the vaccine so obvious choice. However for a 25yo female it is not as clear cut. She is at low risk from the virus but high risk from the vaccine. The million dollar question is how these two risks compare to eachother and at the moment we don’t really know! The fact that the UK claimed no cases of clot when all other countries were reporting them + the fact the we have lots of AZ stock but less of Pfizer etc doesn’t really instill trust that 20-40yo women will be fully informed, does it?

Heartbreaking. I don't know if I could have the same opinion but such a strong family.

twitter.com/jonathansamuels/status/1380064524556976131?s=19

Oak worth a read.

Also, you have been very anti Oxford from the beginning. I don't know why that is but you definitely haven't changed your opinion.

OX/AZ has its issues and there are some concerns that can't be ignored but wow look at the UK now and look at the UK 2/3 months ago.

That is thanks to Pfizer & AZ.

A 25-year old has an 11 in one million chance of serious harm with AZ. High risk?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/explainers-56665396

@sashagabadon it doesn’t work as well as mRNA. SA variant is an issue. We “hope” that AZ prevents severe disease, but there’s no data. mRNA J&J are more effective with SA variant.

Chile opened up too early and yes Sinovac isn’t as good.

Fact remains high risk covid take AZ, low risk personally I’d wait. Even the mhra at the briefing yesterday pretty much said that for low risk.

@oneglassandpuzzled that article is wrong. Ave EU incidence is showing 1:80k.

I think a lot of it depends as well on now getting Novavax out - if they could clear this for the end of April and get it out at the start of May for the under 50s you pretty much circumvent the problem

I may be inclined to wait until mid May as an over 40 under 50 for Novavax

@Wakeupin2022 yes v sad. Strong family or unscientific? I’m talking individual risk here not population. I’ve made that very clear. Talking population risk? We’d vax every adult tomorrow.

I’m thinking as an individual.

So for an 80yo male, high risk from covid and low risk from the vaccine so obvious choice.
However for a 25yo female it is not as clear cut. She is at low risk from the virus but high risk from the vaccine. The million dollar question is how these two risks compare to eachother and at the moment we don’t really know!

Still not high risk from the vaccine. At the most she is at higher risk than the older man, but that doesn't make her high risk. And younger women have also died from COVID. I don't have the numbers, but I suspect the case fatality rate (% of people who have died from the disease) will be higher, much higher than for the vaccine. We do not know what was the risk from COVID for the people who have died.

As there are alternative vaccines, I agree with being cautious and distributing the vaccines to lower the risk to the minimum possible, together with monitoring those who got the vaccines, and so on.
But if the AZ vaccine was the only available, I'd say that it was worth the risk, yes.

AZ has been rolled out since January. Hospital admissions have dropped like a stone. There is data, It’s there in the low hospital admissions, and low deaths. The link between cases and deaths has been broken. That’s all pretty good data in my book and better than a trial on 30,000 volunteers could ever give.

[quote Oaktree55]@oneglassandpuzzled that article is wrong. Ave EU incidence is showing 1:80k.[/quote]
Incidence of what? Serious harm? That’s what the BBC figure gives.

@oneglassandpuzzled the incidence of this autoimmune low platelets/clotting.

I agree it’s complicated the only point I’m trying to make is asses individual risk not population. Many newspaper articles etc are looking at population.

I’d didn’t find it confusing. I posted the figure for ‘serious harm’ caused by the vaccine and you countered with a figure for something else.

[quote oneglassandpuzzled]A 25-year old has an 11 in one million chance of serious harm with AZ. High risk?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/explainers-56665396[/quote]
Risk of 11 in a million from the vaccine vs 23 in a million from Covid BUT this is for both males and females.
I thought females were at higher risk than males from the clots, and lower risk than males from covid? So for a woman the 11 would be higher and the 23 lower... how much higher/lower, that is the question...

More women have been vaccinated with Covid-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca than men.

@Ashleys63

I've just lost all confidence in the AZ vaccine and regret having it at all. I know the risks are tiny etc etc but I want a vaccine without these associated risks. I'm 56 so in one of the top groups but just feel so uneasy about it all now.

No

Why isn’t there now a study on platelet levels after the AZ vaccine, I’m not sure when but say after 7days or 14days? This would surely identify how wide spread the platelet issue is. And potentially identify risk factors. It is possible to have low platelet levels and not present with any symptoms. Also it’s not just the CVS clots that are caused other bleeding problems are also being reported. My question would be if the 1st dose lowers the platelet levels but the person is unaware/unaffected a 2nd dose could lower it further and cause more severe problems. This will not be known for a while because not enough young people will have had the 2nd dose.

@Daisydoor12

Why isn’t there now a study on platelet levels after the AZ vaccine, I’m not sure when but say after 7days or 14days? This would surely identify how wide spread the platelet issue is. And potentially identify risk factors. It is possible to have low platelet levels and not present with any symptoms. Also it’s not just the CVS clots that are caused other bleeding problems are also being reported. My question would be if the 1st dose lowers the platelet levels but the person is unaware/unaffected a 2nd dose could lower it further and cause more severe problems. This will not be known for a while because not enough young people will have had the 2nd dose.

Do you know that there isn't?

I'd expect that research teams are scrambling on this one, now that the link is looking likely.

@sashagabadon It’s irrelevant now if the trials weren’t conducted perfectively

Are you serious?

@Oly4

Oh my word, I can’t believe people are actually not going to run up for second doses off the back of this. NO clots occurred after second doses and the risk of dying even after the first jab was one in a million. There will be PLENTY of other medicines you happily take throughout your life that will be far more risky

a. I take no medicine lightly, let alone happily. and yes b. always read the leaflets. c. I am aware of risks of planes, motorways, the pill[came off it asap], never had pmt medicine, etc etc, and react accordingly hopefully to all risks.

But the main point I want to make is that it is a new[use whatever word you would rather] vaccination. No one anywhere on earth actually knows for 100% sure what the vaccination does to each individual person. No one knows for 100% certain what is around the corner with any covid vaccination, as regards individuals. How can they? Not enough time has passed.

MNetterss giving guarantees is not worth the paper they are written on.

It may be better to take them than not for the majority. Who knows? I certainly wouldnt like to say on way or the other. Jury is still out on that at the moment, and will be for some time to come.

Read an article this evening by a doctor who is inundated by people demanding brain scans, cancelled az appointments, and people complaining of massive headaches after having az.

My point is that everyone has different risks and need to make up their own minds. Scientists and doctors just dont know for 100%.

[quote Oaktree55]@RedToothBrush I think people need to give INFORMED consent re this tricky evolving situation. Too many experts are conflating common VTE with this rare autoimmune clotting. As I said the risk:benefit to each person will depend on their specific situation eg medical conditions/risk of exposure. There will be data forthcoming on mixing and there will be alternative vaccines later on. Whether it is worth waiting will be a v specific situation for each individual. To blanket say everyone should get AZ on 12 week appointment is not true.[/quote]
Except you are NOT informing anything.

You are peddling misinformation and bullshit.

And THEN you go, I despair at vaccine nationalism when people point out that you are pushing dangerous incorrect crap instead of science.

It is NOT informed if you are deliberately misleading people. And you have done so from the word go. Because you have a personal problem with AZ which simply ISN'T backed up by data.

You are being completely disengenous and you are seeking to exploit anxiety to peddle your own agenda and to 'prove' you are right.

NO.

You are little better than an anti-vaxxer. We don't need that shit in the UK. Thats the only nationalism you'll get from me - a desire to eradicate this nonsense from our shores and to pursue an anti-science agenda by undermining public confidence in the vaccination programme.

I do think people are not being given or are taking on board the information they need to know about how their body is still reacting to covid infection, even after they think they have recovered. There is a lot of research being done on this at the moment, not just in the UK. The figures being mentioned are a 30% chance of readmission and around 10-12% chance of death. The sad truth is, we are just scratching the surface as to understanding the impacts of this virus on all the body systems post the acute phase.

I always find it funny that people take paracetomal without a moment thought yet forgetting you have taken it and taking one or two extra pills is potentially serious or even deadly

@frumpety

I do think people are not being given or are taking on board the information they need to know about how their body is still reacting to covid infection, even after they think they have recovered. There is a lot of research being done on this at the moment, not just in the UK. The figures being mentioned are a 30% chance of readmission and around 10-12% chance of death. The sad truth is, we are just scratching the surface as to understanding the impacts of this virus on all the body systems post the acute phase.

Yes, but the people most likely to be hospitalised in the first place are older and/or have underlying health conditions.

Thing that really baffles me is, when you talk about risks, Pfizer isn't totally risk free either. But the focus seems to be only on AZ and blood clot, nothing else. Why is that?

@Quartz2208

I always find it funny that people take paracetomal without a moment thought yet forgetting you have taken it and taking one or two extra pills is potentially serious or even deadly

I don’t. I’ve always been quite appalled by how quickly some people dish out Calpol to their children at the slightest sniffle.