Why did the U.K. regulator not know of these issues sooner?

[Roonerspismed]

Look, I get that medicines all have rare side effects. I get that.

But why did our regulator seem completely ignorant on the numbers? They said we had what - 5 cases - and it wasn’t the same issue here. For weeks.

Various EU and non EU countries had already picked up on it - weeks in advance.

We still said we didn’t have the numbers. Then it seems like last week they did more diligence and checked and we found lots more.

So - assuming the MHRA hasn’t deliberately hidden matters which I don’t think they have - then how is our data assessed? If we had 65 cases of this rare clotting issue in various U.K. hospitals shortly after a vaccine, why wasn’t this picked up/recorded/asked/reported? How are doctors and hospitals advised on this?

Why isn’t this being asked in the media? Isn’t this an absolutely massive deal? How can we have trust in the system?

There are now lots of women alleging menstrual changes. A lesser issue perhaps but still a big deal for those TTC or not - what is happening to those cases?

How can I gain trust in the system?

They were trying to hide it under the carpet. The vaccine rollout was the only 'win' the government had.

Set against, for a healthy person mid 20's, the risk of dying from covid is about 10 times higher at 1 in 100,000.

I don't think this is correct. The risk of dying from covid for a healthy person in their mid 20s is around 1 in 250,000 or less.

I think the screamingly obvious missed point in all of this is that this situation absolutely demonstrates why there is a need for long term data before vaccinating entire populations although I’m pretty sure that some will be along to tell me that’s how we will get the data

Having been on the pull.and flying long haul regularly (well pre covid) I can't get worked up about this. Both of those hold much higher risk.

been on the PILL 💊 not the pull!!

Thought you were revealing your dating techniques

Interesting that changes in women’s menstrual cycle are mentioned, following my AZ vaccination I suffered with an extremely heavy period the worst I’ve had actually. I did mention it to a couple of close friends but didn’t think to yellow card it. Perhaps I should?

I find the difference in the sex of those who became ill quite intriguing. Are healthcare professionals more gender biased in EU than UK. If more women work in healthcare in EU than Uk, it would explain it.

It’s not just HCP that got it, in France, Germany, Italy and probably more AZ was used for frontline workers including teachers, and childcare professionals - the majority of whom are female.

@Robinkitty

Interesting that changes in women’s menstrual cycle are mentioned, following my AZ vaccination I suffered with an extremely heavy period the worst I’ve had actually. I did mention it to a couple of close friends but didn’t think to yellow card it. Perhaps I should?

Yes, you should report any side effects using the yellow card scheme:

yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/

absolutely demonstrates why there is a need for long term data

No it doesn’t, because this side effect appears within weeks after vaccination.

What this demonstrates is that clinical trials will not usually find extremely rare serious side effects because it required millions of people to be vaccinated to become a clear issue.

And clinical trials don’t run on millions of people even if they go on for years. That’s what the yellow card scheme is for.

Bingo

Well yes, it’s bingo, reformed, because it’s correct. If these vaccine trials had gone on for years it wouldn’t have made any difference because clinical trials do not recruit millions of patients. No clinical trials do.

Exactly some of this only comes out as it is given.

And sometimes the risks are worth the reward.

www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/smallpox/questions/en/

Is an interesting look at the smallpox vaccine - and the numbers who died from it (around 1-2 per million doses given) but the rewards were worth it.

We wanted a vaccine with no risks - that was never going to happen

noblegiraffe

Whatever you say. You’re obviously the expert.

I do know how clinical trials work, yes.

@Robinkitty

Interesting that changes in women’s menstrual cycle are mentioned, following my AZ vaccination I suffered with an extremely heavy period the worst I’ve had actually. I did mention it to a couple of close friends but didn’t think to yellow card it. Perhaps I should?

I also had a sudden heavy bleed mid cycle as well as the GI bleeding. Definitely report it.

I do understand the rush to vaccinate those who are at serious risk of complications or death from Covid. We know now who those people are and I’m sure the benefit of the vaccine outweighs the risk.

I don’t accept the need to vaccinate the rest of us abs as for children and babies - you can fuck off.

Quartz the fatality rate for smallpox was upwards of 30% so a 1% vaccine risk was worth it. In the brief period smallpox vaccination was mandatory for children it was to deal with a preference for existing variolation approach which again had a far higher mortality rate.

Nothing like the risk calculation for Covid in the young with no pre existing conditions.

Also doubtful about claims potential issues were not flagged in the trials. There were several instances of severe reactions which caused the trials to be halted before concerns were discounted.

Exactly my pov Tina

Vaccination programmes often rely on a large enough percentage of the population being vaccinated in order to prevent outbreaks. Outbreaks will affect those unable to have the vaccine and some of those who have been vaccinated, as vaccines do not provide 100% protection. We’ve seen this with measles when take-up of the MMR dropped due to the false autism claims.

That’s why it’s important that as many people as possible are vaccinated, regardless of individual risk of covid. It’s a group effort.

@noblegiraffe

Vaccination programmes often rely on a large enough percentage of the population being vaccinated in order to prevent outbreaks. Outbreaks will affect those unable to have the vaccine and some of those who have been vaccinated, as vaccines do not provide 100% protection. We’ve seen this with measles when take-up of the MMR dropped due to the false autism claims.

That’s why it’s important that as many people as possible are vaccinated, regardless of individual risk of covid. It’s a group effort.

This ^^ absolutely.

People do have a choice to receive the vaccine they are offered, not to choose which one they want.

It is the government’s decision which vaccine should be given to each group in the population to maximise cover and minimise risk. Note minimise risk, not be rid of it.

The idea that the government want to kill off it’s population is ridiculous

Isn't it a lower risk than being on the pill?

Immune - either through vaccination or previous infection. According to a model from UCL we're approaching the herd immunity threshold due to the combination of the two. Excellent news.

Last comment in response to @noblegiraffe

Noble that argument becomes problematic in an age stratified situation where benefits accrue disproportionately to one group and harms to the other. Quite different from the MMR where all children are vaccinated as all equally vulnerable and you are only ever adding incrementally to an existing older herd which makes up 90%+ to start with.