Risk of long covid in children

[SansaSnark]

twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1363473889951637504

Twitter thread here from Christina Pagel which is very measured and balanced. She is not usually alarmist about covid related stuff.

The narrative is that catching covid is ok for children, but the truth is, we don't really know what the long term impacts will be.

Personally, I think we need to be more cautious with the level of risk children are being exposed to in schools, and reopen with serious mitigation measures. School sites are very likely to be too small to open to all children at once safely, so some sort of rota system is needed.

Long term, I think we need to be putting more efforts into developing a vaccine for our children.

@TaxTheRatFarms

I genuinely don’t know who to believe. Ds’s consultant from a large teaching hospital who says ds has long covid not regular post viral fatigue, or Beaniecats off of the internet.

Guys this is so tough!!

Really sorry to read about your DS, I hope he gets good care and improves

I disagree that Christina Pagel is not usually alarmist. I’ve followed her throughout this Covid crisis and she has become increasingly so.

Totally agree with this.

I also think that long Covid is a difficult one. The data just isn’t there to understand it fully, it is open to significant interpretation as a concept. It’s been used quite cynically in the media when fear levels drop to drive them up again. So people are sceptical of the widespread risk, whether that ends up to be right or wrong in the long run.

I’m not surprised to see it now referenced re children on the eve of schools reopening, which some people clearly don’t want to see happening.

@TaxTheRatFarms

Thanks itsgettingwierd and so sorry to hear about your ds, that must be so stressful for all of you. It’s really good that his college can do blended learning but completely understand your concerns. I hope it goes really well for him and as worry free for you as possible (if possible at all, but hopefully you know what I mean!) for the pair of us!

I think the thing that's most helpful is he's also autistic and thinks social distancing should be made law

So wherever he is it ain't near no one else

I’m not surprised to see it now referenced re children on the eve of schools reopening, which some people clearly don’t want to see happening.

Equally I am not surprised to see it dismissed out of hand as there are plenty of people keen to see a full and unmitigated reopening!

The thing is, yes, long covid exists and some children do and will develop it. So does PIMS. But what is the alternative to schools reopening? There isn’t one. And while some mitigations such as masks etc may help in secondary schools, they’re unlikely to have as much effect in primaries and the government isn’t going to pump money into schools to allow them to expand classrooms etc. The number of children who do develop significant issues is very small in comparison to the number who shrug it off like a cold, and we can’t keep schools shut because of it for much longer without substantial harms (of all sorts of kinds - poverty, mental health damage, damage to long term prospects etc) coming to substantially more children.

Yes, research should be done into both long covid in children and PIMS - and in fact there is loads of research being published already. Yes, we should vaccinate children - and vaccine trials are in progress or due to start soon. But we can’t keep schools shut until then without disproportionate damage to nearly all children and to the economy and society.

we need to be putting more effort into developing a vaccine for our children

A child specific vaccine doesn't need to be made - we have now have numerous vaccines at our disposal. The issue is which parents are willing to offer up their children to a trial to ascertain if the vaccines we currently have are also safe to roll out to all children.

The issue is which parents are willing to offer up their children to a trial to ascertain if the vaccines we currently have are also safe to roll out to all children.

Not me

Equally I am not surprised to see it dismissed out of hand as there are plenty of people keen to see a full and unmitigated reopening!

In my world, it should take an awful lot to justify closing schools. The fear of totally overwhelming the nhs, I understand as a reason. The risk of long Covid in children, which the data does not seem overwhelming on, not so much.

School closures also damage children’s development and we do not yet know the long-term effects.

They have started testing the current vaccines on children. We won't get the results for that until Autumn probably. In the mean time any child that is vulnerable can get it through their consultant if appropriate.

@PracticingPerson

I'm sure we can all find someone who caught something random that caused problems, but rare viruses are a false comparison as they not widespread. But covid rate is at around 1 in 115 people, falling currently, but rising again once schools open.

Anyone who isn't just a small amount interested in whether their children could be harmed is, IMO, quite odd. I'm not panicking, my kids have had covid once, but I wouldn't want them to catch glandular fever and I wouldn't want them to suffer from long covid either.

Agree with this completely.

Admittedly "whataboutery " but it seems strange that given the concerns about long covid in children that historically in the UK vaccination for chicken pox in children is rare compared to other countries and most parents are not worried despite it having established and well known side effects including death.

Serious complications from chickenpox include:
• Bacterial infections of the skin and soft tissues in children, including Group A streptococcal infections
• Infection of the lungs (pneumonia)
• Infection or inflammation of the brain (encephalitis, cerebellar ataxia)
• Bleeding problems (hemorrhagic complications)
• Bloodstream infections (sepsiss_)
• Dehydration
Some people with serious complications from chickenpox can become so sick that they need to be hospitalized. Chickenpox can also cause death.

If you are looking at the risk probability just for your children (as opposed to them passing it on) then you should be more keen to get them vaccinated for chicken pox than Covid.

@QuestionEverythingOrBeASheep
All the articles about the Oxford children's trial that has just commenced, say that the vaccine should be available by the end of the year....I bloody hope so, it's the only tiny bit of hope we've got at the moment!!

@Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum

They have started testing the current vaccines on children. We won't get the results for that until Autumn probably. In the mean time any child that is vulnerable can get it through their consultant if appropriate.

I'm not sure many medically vulnerable children under 16, are getting vaccinated. My clinically vulnerable son has shielded for most of the year and we have been told that we will have to wait until trials are completed. I have several friends with similarly vulnerable children who have been told the same, and on the online support groups I'm on I haven't seen anyone under 16 receiving the vaccine.

Sorry to anyone who is impacted by long COVID - could be any of us.

On balance my view is schools need to open. Any family who feels their particular circumstances warrant home ed (I don’t mean remote learning) should be permitted to do so without losing a place or having to provide justification. This could be in place until September say when it can then be reviewed. People are then empowered to make a choice.

Just let people carry on OP. It will never happen to them,

I agree, this can happen with any virus, but 1 in 8 is quite significant and it warrants some consideration.

My DC had a virus, a normal, simple, run of the mill virus and as a result now has long term health problems (and the chance of this was much rarer than the figures for long covid) and is 'vulnerable' by covid definitions. But as keeps being said on here 'keep the vulnerable at home, let the healthy get on with their lives'
There will be a lot more 'unhealthy, vulnerable' kids by the end of this if the figures coming out around the world now are correct.

I don't think anyone should be forced to send their children to school right now (especially if they reopen with no mitagation) and if it is something you don't feel comfortable with then I would encourage you to act on that and keep them at home. There are worse things in life than catching up with some lost education.

@Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum

They have started testing the current vaccines on children. We won't get the results for that until Autumn probably. In the mean time any child that is vulnerable can get it through their consultant if appropriate.

My vulnerable dc can’t get the vaccine. I don’t think many young children are being offered it, even if CEV. It’s definitely not as straightforward as you make it sound.

@gigity

Actually the pneumococcal vaccine is one of the routine childhood vaccines given to babies.

But that's for protection in infancy I thought, does it protect you for your whole life?

I’m not sure but it’s the same vaccine you can buy privately in boots as an adult so I imagine protection lasts for a number of years.

@gallbladderpain
Unfortunately I can't keep ds's sisters off school until the vaccine is ok'd for children...so the risk is still there.

Sorry I realise it isn't straight forwards but the children most at risk hopefully can. That is all I am saying. That was what Van Tam said and what some posters on other threads have said is happening with their own children.

It is like the priority list unfortunately. Some people are more vulnerable than the rest of us. However not as vulnerable as the most at risk. Not an easy thing if your own child I am sure. Can't even imagine being the consultant making those decisions too.

@Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum

Sorry I realise it isn't straight forwards but the children most at risk hopefully can. That is all I am saying. That was what Van Tam said and what some posters on other threads have said is happening with their own children.

It is like the priority list unfortunately. Some people are more vulnerable than the rest of us. However not as vulnerable as the most at risk. Not an easy thing if your own child I am sure. Can't even imagine being the consultant making those decisions too.

I'd be interested to see any of the threads here where under 16s have been put forward for vaccines. The guidelines state 16 at youngest or in residential care...and even children I know with life limiting conditions aren't being vaccinated. Ds's Dr agrees he should be shielding and is clinically extremely vulnerable - but not advising vaccination.

[quote HazeyJaneII]@gallbladderpain
Unfortunately I can't keep ds's sisters off school until the vaccine is ok'd for children...so the risk is still there.[/quote]
Mine haven't returned since March 20, only one at risk. I know quite a lot have done the same, some have been threatened with fines but as far as I know none have actually been fined yet and others (like ourselves) have had full support of the school. Different council areas also seem to be dealing with it differently with some saying they won't issue fines)
I understand not everyone is getting that though and really that should be changed at a government level! It is unbelievable to say shielded children cannot attend school but their siblings should carry on as normal !

I'm not sure I could do it to them to be honest, they are year 9 and 10...it's a big thing to miss this time, and school have not done it for other children with cev relatives.

@TaxTheRatFarms

Ylva I must tell ds’s consultant, who diagnosed him with long covid, that it’s not a thing. I’m sure his years of experience as a paediatrician are nothing compared to the opinion of an internet random

MaxNormal Do you know what’s also properly shit for children? Not being able to play football anymore because 11 months post-Covid, he can’t run without getting out if breath and nearly passing out. Shit is being so wiped out that you miss Fridays at school because by Thursday you’re so exhausted that your body weighs a ton and the pain of moving makes you cry. Imagine having a painful flare up of your original symptoms every week at 11 years old. Ill for 11 months.

Oh and to Ylva again. Yes, other viruses can cause long term complications. But he’s vaccinated against all of them, protecting him from that risk. Always a weird argument “well, people don’t worry about other viral infections!” Yet guaranteed you get your kids their MMR jabs and flu vaccine. Your logic doesn’t work, does it?

So sorry to read this. It is indeed really shit. Your DS sounds like he's in "boom & bust" which isn't good for long term prognosis. Is your paediatrician helping you with that?

@Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum

Sorry I realise it isn't straight forwards but the children most at risk hopefully can. That is all I am saying. That was what Van Tam said and what some posters on other threads have said is happening with their own children.

It is like the priority list unfortunately. Some people are more vulnerable than the rest of us. However not as vulnerable as the most at risk. Not an easy thing if your own child I am sure. Can't even imagine being the consultant making those decisions too.

Everyone only listens to what the government tells them and believes everything they say. I also know some extremely vulnerable children and none of their consultants have agreed to vaccination at this stage. Infact I have yet to know of anyone under 16 who has been offered the vaccinated, but if anyone on here has then I would be interested to find out to help the rest of us out.