Vitamin D fans (myself included) - bad news

[bobbiester]

The much talked about Nogués et al preprint on "Calcifediol Treatment and COVID-19-Related Outcomes" - where they claimed to have randomly allocated patients to either receive Vitamin D or not - has been taken down by The Lancet...

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3771318

"We have removed this preprint due to concerns about the description of the research in this paper. This has led us to initiate an investigation into this study."

As I've said in another thread - I'm taking loads of vitamin D - but the evidence that it's an effective treatment for COVID-19 is still lacking.

So book your vaccines folks - it's the one thing you can stick into your body that has been shown to substantially reduce your risk of getting ill from COVID-19!!

Cross post cherry. That's interesting. Perhaps not enough data yet and as pointed out in the twitter thread, it's an observational study?

Always take a supplement in the winter months when sunshine is in short supply. In normal times we’d also be getting some sun from winter holidays.
Seems to be working as no coughs, colds etc.

@SugarfreeBlitz

The government initially suggested that vitamin D didn't help at all, MH should be for the high jump for that as well. There has long been the issue of GP's not advocating for people taking vitamins (perhaps because of vitamins reacting with many medications?) Or maybe because they get so much money from the drug companies that they actually don't want people to be "too well!"

People are honestly better off doing their own research. The government does know exactly what makes people well and what makes people sick because SAGE have done extensive research on it. They just don't want us to know. I can't access this one journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1258/ebm.2010.010c01

I did find an article on SAGE ages ago that had all the things that made disease more likely, but I can't find it now. It was things like stress, not enough daylight, exercise, vitamins - so basically covid is going to affect poorer people more because they might not have access to vitamins or a good diet, perhaps can't afford exercise equipment and might be more stressed. Drinking in excess and smoking was also on the list.

Just to clarify, SAGE publishing isn’t the same as the government SAGE advisory group.

Well, I was taking it anyway because I understand in winter, one should (in the UK). So this advice changes nothing for me.

daisy, my view is that if you have got your levels up in the summer from sunlight you then store it and then have enough for the British winter without taking a supplement. However anyone deficient in anything should definitely sort that out and all these studies are a good idea.

As a more general point a lot of people don't get outside enough and although we have in the summer that big issue of cancer v vit D over suncream issues most of us don't burn in 15 or 20 minutes in the sun with no suncream in the UK (although obviously not in very hot places like Australia)

Update on performance of England hospital trusts from March 2020 to 16th Feb 2021 from www.england.nhs.uk stats.

Guy's and St Thomas'
Newcastle Hos
Manchester Uni
...are all in the top 5 best performing covid 19 hospitals out of 124.

All three are running (or have run in the past) vitamin D3 trials. Guy's has been running a non-intervention observational study, however I assume that they will flag any early entry deficiency.

twitter.com/AnalyticsFast/status/1361362105996357635

Based on this, other hospitals should be following suite given that we are still a few weeks away from vaccinating all that want to be.

The problem with these type of threads OP is that it reinforces the "I'm not taking a pill" brigade, and the people who are unfortunately ignorant of how their bodies manufacture vitamin D. "Sunshine is enough for me." Ermm, no it's not. Not if you live in the UK in winter.

Your blood work results don't care if you don't believe in supplements. Get tested and your results are your results, regardless of your personal beliefs. You are either deficient in February during a pandemic, or not.

Vitamin D is a hormone that boosts the immune system. It helps protect you against many illnesses - not just respiratory ones. It can have a positive effect on mood. Decent levels are required to overcome insulin resistance (which is a barrier to losing weight).

I'm a strong advocate of getting the UK out of widespread vitamin D deficiency. Not just for this pandemic, but for general health and as a basic preventative measure.
It was never an either/or situation with the vaccine. We absolutely need the vaccine.

Regarding treatment once patients are seriously ill and hosptalised - I would like to see us at a point where nobody is arriving at hospital vitamin D deficient.
Considering how cheap and readily available it is, that shouldn't have been difficult to achieve.
Anybody arriving at hospital now already deficient (actual deficiency or low levels rather than a sudden drop due to the illness) - we should be asking ourselves why they are. Could it be the lack of clear public messaging?

@Zenia - I would be interested in any link you have that supports your belief that your body stores vitamin D from the summer throughout the winter. It's the opposite of what I've read. I'll try to find links.

@Zenia - Regarding how long vitamin D is stored in the body. Every website suggests that one part of vitamin D lasts hours - up to 30 hours. The other part is estimated to last (stored in fat) for around 3 weeks. The longest speculated period I found was 2 months.
I read that we can get around 10% of the vitamin D we need from food. We can't manage 100% from food alone.

I think you need to take it every day and I also believe (not sure if it's provable!) that there is a feeling of wellbeing that comes from vit D.

When I haven't taken it I feel my MH is worse, but it could be just a placebo effect?

Where I've said 1000 ug I mean iu, that's 400 ug. (why there's two ways of talking about it I've no idea!)

@SugarfreeBlitz

I think you need to take it every day and I also believe (not sure if it's provable!) that there is a feeling of wellbeing that comes from vit D.

When I haven't taken it I feel my MH is worse, but it could be just a placebo effect?

I believe it does help MH.

The body does store vitamin D in summer and uses it in winter.. However it doesnt store enough to prevent significant numbers becoming deficient and more having levels that are low but not bad enough to make doctors worry about osteoporosis. It's actually quite difficult to find the studies but there are a few about that show marked seasonal differences and also latitudinal differences. So if Xenia lives in the north she is even more foolish for not supplementing - unless, of course, she has had a vitamin D blood test and knows her level is still adequate. Fauci takes a supplement, Trump was treated with it, although not clear if that was on or against his doctors advice www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/donald-trump-covid-19-treatment-medications

The NHS actively discourages doctors from testing but a private test is about £30. I paid for tests last year.

It is criminal that the government refused to fund a trial of this - and only funded a trial of vitamin D as a possible preventive that wont report for months. JVT is the principal investigator of a vitamin D trial - clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04476680

It's a hormone. So it's completely understandable when people link it to better mental health. When you think about the effects our hormones have on mood close to periods, or pre-menopause.

@Xenia

daisy, my view is that if you have got your levels up in the summer from sunlight you then store it and then have enough for the British winter without taking a supplement. However anyone deficient in anything should definitely sort that out and all these studies are a good idea.

As a more general point a lot of people don't get outside enough and although we have in the summer that big issue of cancer v vit D over suncream issues most of us don't burn in 15 or 20 minutes in the sun with no suncream in the UK (although obviously not in very hot places like Australia)

That's not how it works I'm afraid @Xenia.

Vitamin D has a maximum half-life of 15 days. It's called the sunshine Vitamin for a reason, and as I mentioned above, supplementing with a daily Vitamin D tablet is really important to keep up the levels through the sunshine- depleted months.

The cancer versus vitamin D debate is one that's easily resolved. Don't go out without sun UV protection between the hours of 11am and 3pm when UV is at a dangerous level. Exposing the skin to UV outside those times for 30-45 mins per day is adequate to stimulate Vitamin D production by the body.

I take 20,000 twice a week as they found my level was 9 when tested

My friend is deficient - she is outside all day 6 days a week, 8am - 6pm and now takes vitamin D

The NHS suggests a supplement might be a good idea for some.

"But the majority of people aged 5 years and above will probably get enough vitamin D from sunlight in the summer (late March/early April to the end of September), so you might choose not to take a vitamin D supplement during these months." www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/how-to-get-vitamin-d-from-sunlight/

However if people want to take supplements I have no axe to grind about it - take them if you can afford it and want to do so.

May be I have only needed a doctor for 7 minutes in 15 years because of pure luck rather than anything else!

Dept Health advice is for all adults to supplement in winter www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/

Personally I consider the level recommended to be too low. Xenia is obsessed with weight so I suspect she's secretly overweight and needs a lot more vitamin D. It's stored in fat cells, half life makes no sense in that context.

May be I have only needed a doctor for 7 minutes in 15 years because of pure luck rather than anything else!

Doubtful that not needing to see the GP for 15 years is due to any one thing, least of all purely down to luck.

If you have a reasonably healthy diet, do regular exercise, keep your weight within recommended boundaries, have good sleep hygiene, and are lucky enough not to have pre-existing health conditions, then those will all be contributory factors in not needing to see a GP. Not luck alone!

That said, there are plenty of people who seem proud not to need a GP but actually suffer from silent conditions like hypertension- so don't let it kid you that not thinking you need to see a GP is the same as enjoying great health - you should still have an annual check such as a well-woman MOT which is bloods for liver/kidney function, cholesterol level, BP and pulse etc. I do this annually and also have a few minutes getting my GP or the nurse to compare my stats to previous years. Last year we discovered my cholesterol level had improved (less stress more porridge!).

I thought vitamin D was to boost your general immunity so if you did get Covid it would take the edge off the severity not that it was to be used instead of a vaccine or taking it prevented you from getting Covid

It is to boost general immunity @Bythemillpond the trouble is, fact gets conflated with anecdata and stuff people choose to make up then it all gets very confusing and it becomes difficult to know what's true or not not saying on this thread necessarily, just in general on t'internet.

I’ve always supplemented myself and my family during winter months and will continue to do so.

From NHS

“Everyone over the age of 5 years (including pregnant and breastfeeding women) is advised to consider taking a daily supplement containing 10 micrograms (μg) of vitamin D.

But the majority of people aged 5 years and above will probably get enough vitamin D from sunlight in the summer (late March/early April to the end of September), so you might choose not to take a vitamin D supplement during these months.”

I take a supplement in the winter but not the Spring/summer.

[quote ScrapThatThen]Sorry I don't have a share token but saw this headline about a French nasal spray trialled at a festival which prevents covid (presumably with caveats about different transmission routes and correct usage www.thetimes.co.uk/article/festivalgoers-nasal-spray-avoided-covid-infection-dsd2mpsm7[/quote]
I don't know who does their PR but they are impressive... The onslaught of press coverage and social media posts since November has been huge.

I'm not so impressed with their study design. It's based on a trial where all members of a synagogue in Israel were offered the spray for free. Those that took and used the spray had a lower incidence of infection in the following 14 days than those that didn't. The big flaw with that is that those that chose to use the spray are likely to be those most concerned with protecting themselves from the virus and taking other measures making it hugely biased.

There is an ongoing clinical trial for the Boots Dual Defence nasal spray at the moment (it works in the same way, a powder that forms a gel in your nose to physically block the virus). There is also a much cheaper spray called Nasaleze sold in Boots that has the same active ingredient as the one in that article.

No secret helath problems here. Just don't seem to get ill. Obviously no colds in 2020 . I probably had one in 2019 but not something I need to see a doctor over. I had a ski accident in 2012 which was the 7 minutes with the GP. Must just be luck and I eat fairly healthy foods. I don't know why someone said I was obsessed with weight. I wouldn't mind losing a stone but weight isn''t a big thing for me.

May be my run of good health will end once I move into my 60s.
Don't take any supplements.. I do gardening most days.

It is a big unfair to call people who eat good foods but don't take vitamin supplements a "brigade" as if we were some kind of weird nutters. Most people in the UK don't take supplements and indeed many could not afford it anyway. I think 34% of people take them daily so most of the population is in the no supplements brigade - perhaps we are a platoon no less..... the silent majority who don't take anything and just eat food, move around and go outside in sun.