Vitamin D fans (myself included) - bad news

[bobbiester]

The much talked about Nogués et al preprint on "Calcifediol Treatment and COVID-19-Related Outcomes" - where they claimed to have randomly allocated patients to either receive Vitamin D or not - has been taken down by The Lancet...

papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3771318

"We have removed this preprint due to concerns about the description of the research in this paper. This has led us to initiate an investigation into this study."

As I've said in another thread - I'm taking loads of vitamin D - but the evidence that it's an effective treatment for COVID-19 is still lacking.

So book your vaccines folks - it's the one thing you can stick into your body that has been shown to substantially reduce your risk of getting ill from COVID-19!!

Vitamin D is great for the immune system and most people are deficient

Vitamin D is actually a hormone pretty much essential to every function in the body.
At our latitude during winter, we should all be taking supplementary vit d and if, like me, you stay quite covered come spring/summer, you should supplement then as well.

In September 2020 Matt Hancock lied in parliament by falsely saying that there had been a vitamin d trial in the UK and it didn't 'appear to have any impact'.

Meanwhile in Preston, Leicester, Tameside and Newcastle hospitals, many covid 19 patients lives have been saved by vitamin D3 booster therapy administered as soon as they were admitted. Mortality reductions are clear and significant.

Not surprisingly these hospitals (especially the Newcastle Hospital lead by Dr Quinton) are the top performers in the covid 19 treatment statistics.

But this doesn't make headlines.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32621392/

www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/12/3799/htm#

twitter.com/AnalyticsFast/status/1348608460947148801

Luckily spanish doctors aren't obsessed with placebos - they are using this treatment across Andalucia - it's all over the spanish press.

All this focus on placebo arms and randomisation of a highly successful spanish treatment using the active (and fast acting) form of vitamin d3 is a smokescreen.

The government initially suggested that vitamin D didn't help at all, MH should be for the high jump for that as well.
There has long been the issue of GP's not advocating for people taking vitamins (perhaps because of vitamins reacting with many medications?) Or maybe because they get so much money from the drug companies that they actually don't want people to be "too well!"

People are honestly better off doing their own research. The government does know exactly what makes people well and what makes people sick because SAGE have done extensive research on it. They just don't want us to know. I can't access this one journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1258/ebm.2010.010c01

I did find an article on SAGE ages ago that had all the things that made disease more likely, but I can't find it now. It was things like stress, not enough daylight, exercise, vitamins - so basically covid is going to affect poorer people more because they might not have access to vitamins or a good diet, perhaps can't afford exercise equipment and might be more stressed. Drinking in excess and smoking was also on the list.

I hadn't heard of it being trialled as a treatment, but its great to take anyway, covid aside. I started taking it every winter but take it every day now.

I started taking vitamin D supplement a few years ago along with other supplements for general health and bone health. I take vitamin c, magnesium, cod liver oil, vitamin D. I eat a clean enough diet too.

There's something working because I never got a cold last winter 2019/2020. Others around me got colds but I never got anything. I think it's good for general health.

@CherryBlossomOsaka

In September 2020 Matt Hancock lied in parliament by falsely saying that there had been a vitamin d trial in the UK and it didn't 'appear to have any impact'.

Meanwhile in Preston, Leicester, Tameside and Newcastle hospitals, many covid 19 patients lives have been saved by vitamin D3 booster therapy administered as soon as they were admitted. Mortality reductions are clear and significant.

Not surprisingly these hospitals (especially the Newcastle Hospital lead by Dr Quinton) are the top performers in the covid 19 treatment statistics.

But this doesn't make headlines.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32621392/

www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/12/3799/htm#

twitter.com/AnalyticsFast/status/1348608460947148801

Luckily spanish doctors aren't obsessed with placebos - they are using this treatment across Andalucia - it's all over the spanish press.

All this focus on placebo arms and randomisation of a highly successful spanish treatment using the active (and fast acting) form of vitamin d3 is a smokescreen.

Sorry but the Preston/Leicester/Tameside/Newcastle study you refer to was not a randomized controlled trial of vitamin D3 "booster therapy" . I won't bother going into the details - but will just quote the authors themselves who admit "due to the cross-sectional nature of this study, we are unable to ascertain cause and effect between associations, and we do not have a mechanistic understanding of our findings as yet." i.e. the authors themselves admit that we cannot be sure that a vitamin D3 intervention reduced mortality.

Randomized controlled trials are not a "smokescreen" - they are critical for the development of an evidence base in medicine. Placebo control is not essential for them to be informative - e.g. a new intervention can be compared to standard care - but proper randomization is critical.

I got out in sunlight with not much on for 20 minutes without suncream most days between April and October and have only seen my GP for 7 minutes in 15 years. I am not saying getting vit D from the sun (in my view the best way to get it) is the reason but I will certainly not be stopping doing it. I would not however take a pill. Stick with nature.

@SugarfreeBlitz

The government initially suggested that vitamin D didn't help at all, MH should be for the high jump for that as well. There has long been the issue of GP's not advocating for people taking vitamins (perhaps because of vitamins reacting with many medications?) Or maybe because they get so much money from the drug companies that they actually don't want people to be "too well!"

People are honestly better off doing their own research. The government does know exactly what makes people well and what makes people sick because SAGE have done extensive research on it. They just don't want us to know. I can't access this one journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1258/ebm.2010.010c01

I did find an article on SAGE ages ago that had all the things that made disease more likely, but I can't find it now. It was things like stress, not enough daylight, exercise, vitamins - so basically covid is going to affect poorer people more because they might not have access to vitamins or a good diet, perhaps can't afford exercise equipment and might be more stressed. Drinking in excess and smoking was also on the list.

SAGE - the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies has nothing to do with SAGE Journals. The later is a commercial publisher of scientific journals.

The article you provided a link to is an editorial/letter written by a vitamin D advocacy group - not a research study.

This is a proper randomized controlled trial - the only one so far - published last week, in one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world...

Effect of a Single High Dose of Vitamin D3 on Hospital Length of Stay in Patients With Moderate to Severe COVID-19: A Randomized Clinical Trial
jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776738

"In this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial, a single high dose of vitamin D3 did not significantly reduce hospital length of stay or improve any other clinically relevant outcomes among hospitalized patients with moderate to severe COVID-19. To our knowledge, this is the first randomized clinical trial to demonstrate these findings."

I don't care, I've felt so much better since taking it. It's one of the good things that has come out of covid.

@bobbiester

Who said the Preston, Leicester, Tameside, Newcastle hospital trials are RCTs ?????

Nobody has said this on this thread, you must have imagined it :)

Sorry but vitamin D3 is being used successfully in the UK as treatment, whether you like it or not.

Patients received cholecalciferol booster therapy if they were recognised as being either vitamin D insufficient (serum 25(OH)D 25–50 nmol/L) or deficient as part of routine clinical care.

treatment with cholecalciferol appeared to be protective against mortality, regardless of baseline serum 25(OH)D levels, and this replicated across both cohorts.

Vitamin D skeptics never talk about the fact that vitamin D3 has been proved to have a mitigating effect against respiratory diseases, years before covid 19 came along.

It has been proved for many years that D3 is a immunomodulatory steroid hormone.

Vitamin D randomised trials for respiratory viruses have already been peer reviewed and published years ago.

Here's a British one (meta) from 2019 - pre-covid. It covers many respiratory viruses:

Results: We identified 25 eligible RCTs (a total of 11,321 participants, aged from 0 to 95 years.)

Vitamin D supplementation reduced the risk of ARI among all participants.

Vitamin D supplementation was safe, and it protected against ARIs overall. Very deficient individuals and those not receiving bolus doses experienced the benefit.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30675873/

Even if you assume that optimal serum levels only give you a 10% better survival chance for a few pennies a day, you'd be foolhardy not to get yourself tested and supplement.

Me too. I swear its good for MH

@bobbiester

The Brazil RCT has already been covered by this thread. They gave a high dose vitamin D3 to ICU patients already at death's door, knowing full well that it takes 2 weeks to metabolise the cholecalciferol.

The spanish trial used calcifediol which is an active form and takes just hours to be available.

Would anyone expect throwing a bucket of water on a blazing house fire to work? Does this mean water can't put out fires?

There’s more than one study showing higher vitamin d levels protect against covid—here is a roundup www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jan/10/does-vitamin-d-combat-covid

Also the study that purports to show vitamin d doesn’t help only tested a single large dose. This seems like a study set up to give a predetermined result that vitamin d doesn’t work. It seems obvious that you need to keep body levels up with daily dosing, which is what many of us are doing.

@Xenia

I got out in sunlight with not much on for 20 minutes without suncream most days between April and October and have only seen my GP for 7 minutes in 15 years. I am not saying getting vit D from the sun (in my view the best way to get it) is the reason but I will certainly not be stopping doing it. I would not however take a pill. Stick with nature.

But it's the months between October and April that are the problem!

It's easy enough going out "with not much on" from April to October, but it's unviable doing that in winter in sub-zero conditions in the Northern hemisphere when UV levels are insufficient for the body to naturally produce VitD. That's when supplements are necessary.

I take a daily recommended dose of VitD during winter to compensate for lack of high quality sunlight - even though I walk and cycle daily, almost all my skin is covered to keep warm.

The only people who need supplements in summer are the housebound and those who cover up in the sun - not just those with religious reasons but those avoiding the risk of skin cancer. The need for supplementation in winter is acknowledged by all doctors, the debate is about whether it is protection for covid and how much is required. Xenia cant easily get abroad for any winter sun this year so if not supplementing she is a fool.

Has no-one read the editorial about the JAMA study? jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2776736?resultClick=1 OK they conclude it doesnt work, based on the failure of trials for unrelated disease - but they also explain it was an under powered study and never was going to be able to prove what it was supposed to be testing, didnt test whether patients actually were able to convert the form of vitamin D used to an active form and didnt give it to the sickest patients.

@MissDollyMix

Interesting. I must say though, since I started taking a vitamin D supplement I’ve noticed a massive improvement in my overall health so it hasn’t all been a waste!

Same here, especially joints and my nails look great. (Bar some ongoing issues with thyroid levels)

Also, any slight cold I have caught (a few due to working in sen school and having a young child at nursery) have been very mild and not triggered my asthma.

And there is evidence for better vit d levels supporting in other viral infections so not a wasted idea.

Cherry, that's interesting.

I'm in Newcastle and know some working on the Covid wards. Will ask about that.

Look I'm a vitamin D fan myself. I take a large dose for many reasons.

However, various people (including on this thread) have suggested that vitamin D supplementation can treat or reduce the severity of COVID.

It would be great if that were true. However, there simply are no proper trials of vitamin D therapy published in proper medical journals that show this.

The Spanish trial paper has been withdrawn prior to publication (as it was seriously dodgy), the Newcastle one wasn't designed as a trial of a treatment, and the only good trial (published in JAMA last week) shows no effect.

I'll keep taking my vitamin D - but at this point in time there just is no good evidence that supplementation can reduce the severity of COVID.

(Note this is a different issue to whether baseline blood levels of vitamin D predict COVID severity. Important not to mix the two issues up)

Here's an interview with Quinton.

It sounds like it's just not been proven beyond all reasonable doubt as he says.

But that doesn't mean it's not helpful.

I now take the 3000 spray most days and an equivalent dose of vit k2 and then 200 mag glycinate at night plus half a calcium, mag and zinc supplement as I'm breastfeeding (you shouldn't need the calcium but if I don't my nipples are on fire for 10 days before my period.)

twitter.com/matthabusby/status/1350092185602039808?s=21

The leading light at Newcastle Hospital is Dr Richard Quinton :

“Our view was that this treatment is so safe and the crisis is so enormous that we don’t have time to debate,” said Dr Richard Quinton, a consultant endocrinologist at the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Newcastle.

In the Newcastle hospitals, patients found to be vitamin D-deficient were given extremely high oral doses of the nutrient, often up to 750 times the daily measure recommended by Public Health England. In July, clinicians wrote to the journal Clinical Endocrinology to share their initial outcomes. Of the first 134 coronavirus patients given vitamin D, 94 had been discharged, 24 were still receiving inpatient care, and 16 had died. The clinicians hadn’t clearly associated vitamin D levels with overall death rates, but only three patients with high levels of the nutrient died, and all of them were frail and in their 90s.''

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jan/10/does-vitamin-d-combat-covid

Note this is a different issue to whether baseline blood levels of vitamin D predict COVID severity. Important not to mix the two issues up

That may be the crux; he noted that prisons started giving 1000 ug to all prisoners last year. Of course they don't see much sun, but neither does your average office or hospital worker. And anyone with slightly darker skin needs more.