40% of Covid cases caught IN hospital

[Redbrickwall]

I know it’s the daily mail but it’s all over

So whilst our lives have been fucked, they realistically needed to improve infection control in hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9254495/Stopping-Covid-spreading-hospitals-substantial-reduction-wave-deaths.html

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/03/covid-coughing-study-suggests-nhs-staff-at-far-greater-risk-than-thought

the staff need proper PPE

@fairgame84

It's disgusting the way it's spread around the wards. The hospital I work in had covid on every single adult ward at one point. I had to help out on an elderly ward and every single patient had covid. I work on a children's ward and our staff have been sent to adult wards and their infection control is disgusting. They don't change apron or gloves between patients and they are responsible for spreading it. There was a massive outbreak on an orthopaedic ward due to staff being complacent and not wearing masks because 'they don't get covid on that ward'. I've been nursing for 11 years and i'm ashamed of the nhs.

@fairgame84 that situation sounds awful and puts both staff and patients at risk. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. I'd suggest finding out your trusts whistle blowing policy, but on the other hand it sounds like this attitude is rife, would be hard to change overnight/in time to make a difference this lockdown and I'm not naive enough to think there wouldn't be consequences for your career. Thank you for caring.

I've wondered for a while how much of the spread has been due to hospital/care staff complacency (or plain ignorance). Kept telling myself not to be an idiot and that of course infection control would be good (e.g. apron/glove/mask changes, wash hands)... now it appears I was being naive. A friends elderly parent is being cared for at home and recently caught Covid. They're shielding and the only people they see are carers. It makes you wonder... it only takes one person to say "oh it doesn't matter just this once, everyone has been fine so far".

I attended a hospital appointment the other day and it was set up beautifully in order to enable social distancing for patients, hand sanitiser everywhere... the people who weren't following the guidance were always groups of staff (queue for Costa was particularly bad, staff in uniform huddled together having a chat).

@Eaumyword

My friend's mum went into hospital last week with an unrelated issue. She tested positive yesterday. She has 100% caught it in hospital. The hospital tried to discharge her into the direct care of my ECV friend who has been shielding for basically a year. And they wonder how the virus is spreading. I respect the hard work NHS staff do, but based on examples like this I'm afraid they are perpetuating community transmission and thus a vicious cycle.

She has 100% caught it in hospital

No, she 100% hasn't. She might have done. It is known that the virus incubation period can be up to 14 days, so until that window has passed, anywhere the person has been may be the site of infection. That is why the figures for hospital acquired Covid actually don't include anyone who has been in hospital for less than 14 days.

But this is old news, and, in all honesty, what were people expecting. The NHS has been the victim of chronic underfunding for decades; something that some of you have voted for! You'd rather have tax cuts of a few pennies than pay for the kind of medical and social care that a wealthy 21st century nation deserves. And now you would like to blame the NHS for that fact because it is struggling with inadequate facilities during an unprecedented pandemic - after official warnings in a parliamentary report from 2016 that the NHS would struggle to manage a pandemic because we hadn't invested enough in it!

I am not saying the NHS is perfect or that some things could be done better. And I absolutely abhor the manipulative government advertising too. But lets put "blame" where it is due.

Firstly - it's a virus and short of encasing a hospital in a bubble there is absolutely no way whatsoever to prevent a virus getting in anywhere, never mind a hospital that houses sick people. If you doubt that, have a look at the much vaunted Australia - they can't keep it out. This is what viruses do. And they are expert at transmission.

Secondly, when you don't invest in health care, when you don't pay any attention to the obvious deficiencies in medical care, when you pay no attention to the risks being pointed out to you, then the blame is on you. Successive Tory governments have been warned this was coming. They were warned chronic underfunding of facilities was causing unacceptable delays in treatments before Covid. They ignored those warnings, so that is where the blame lies.

And none of this - including the Covid hospital transmission rates, are secrets. Everybody was capable of knowing how bad things were getting. The information has been out there. Newspapers have written about it. Documentaries have been filmed about it. There's an internet full of information about it. If you didn't know, or did nothing about it when you did know, then that is your fault.

My dad caught it in hospital last month. He came home having had a negative test 3 days before they discharged him.

Three days after coming home he fell ill although it didn't seem as though he had covid symptoms. On the fifth day he died. It turned out he did have covid.

Two days later mum became ill. Me and DH stayed with her to look after her but after a week she was taken into hospital and a few days later she too died.

My sister and brother in law who visited the house when dad died tested positive and sister has been quite ill.

We had all spent the last year literally not going anywhere even a supermarket. Sister who is ill washed all her shopping, isolated her post etc. Brother in law had quite a big op last year so they were being extra careful.

The most upsetting thing for me is that it turned out dad did not need to go into hospital. I don't blame the paramedic for being cautious but if he had not gone in it would not have started the awful chain of events.

I think most staff in hospitals are hardworking and adhere to all the hygiene measures. However having neighbours both sides who are nurses and having seen how they have disregarded all the lock down rules about having visitors, keeping a distance etc I can see how some are helping the spread.

One of the neighbour's husbands thought he had covid. He stayed home while waiting the result but his wife carried on working and his children carried on going to school. Thankfully his test was negative but it could easily have been positive

So sorry Lynsey, that's really sad

@TillyTopper

I am absolutely not surprised at all. I know you can't extrapolate from personal experience but my Dad died in hospital in December, he had 2 negative tests before he went in, but caught CV19 whilst in there. I personally know 3 others who went in for something else (stroke, to give birth, heart problems) and they got CV19 in there. I have thought for months they should only let people into hospital if they have had a -ve test, all others go to a Nightingale.

I know the set up in several areas is to have a covid hospital and a non covid hospital. One deals with covid patients and the other is supposed to be covid free dealing with people with other conditions.

Its not working by all accounts.

God bless the NHS, but no amount of funding is going to save this system in the 21st century. The only alternative to the NHS isn't "America" -- plenty of European countries can provide a blueprint for a new health service that pays staff properly and provides patients with timely, high quality treatment. The sacred cow status of the NHS means it's impossible to have these discussions publicly or politically, but it needs to happen

@MalteserGeezee

God bless the NHS, but no amount of funding is going to save this system in the 21st century. The only alternative to the NHS isn't "America" -- plenty of European countries can provide a blueprint for a new health service that pays staff properly and provides patients with timely, high quality treatment. The sacred cow status of the NHS means it's impossible to have these discussions publicly or politically, but it needs to happen

Have to agree. It's not a binary choice between the NHS or the US system - so many "middle ground" options work very well in other countries. We've had a couple of decades of "reform" in the NHS and it's not touched the sides of dealing with it's problems - just even more bureaucracy and cost, with more separate trusts, CCGs, the internal market, etc. We need some strong leadership to properly tackle the real problems.

Course it will spread in hospitals. Many hospitals aren’t designed for pandemics, few isolation rooms. Heating is either hot or cold and windows barely open. Patients can’t be expected to be walking around with wipes to clean door handles etc they can barely look after themselves in a lot of cases. Also no people sometimes don’t wash their hands after going to the toilet. You would be surprised at how low some people’s hygiene standards are

Covid can go undetected even after tests: test neg on day 0/3 then positive day 5. Probably already incubating it before admission but looks like they caught in hospital. In a bay of 4 non covid. They now could have it.

PPE Is an issue it’s very basic not even ffp3 in most cases. Patients don’t always wear masks.

High footfall of staff and patients in wards, outpatients aren’t tested in my trust. Those coming onto wards are.

Staffing is very poor pre pandemic, High sickness now. Staff are being moved sometimes on one shift from ward to ward that’s so wrong but what do they do if no staff on a ward full with patients?. Some staff will be blasé nhs staff are human( I work with amazing staff but some arent ) if they work on a non covid area some will be hit and miss with infection control and yes this is very wrong and is an issue.

Staff have worked throughout, social distancing isn’t always possible but yup we can have close contact with our paper masks and continue working. So course it will be a risk. However staff should be maintains distance from other staff where they can.

It’s not perfect but most of us are trying our best to keep everyone safe with a really contagious illness in settings not fit for purpose in a pandemic.

Moondust001
Well said.
People have voted for the NHS to be underfunded for years and now they seem surprised that it's finding it hard to cope. Either they thought the whole system ran on fairy dust, or they were silly enough to believe that you can keep cutting and cutting (whilst giving contracts to Richard Branson) and there not be an impact on the service.
Still, this is just what Rees-Mogg and the likes want: a health service that's struggling so they can justify selling it off by telling people it will reduce waiting times.

To be fair I don't think it's the NHS's fault that covid is being caught in hospitals.

Think about it - enclosed rooms, medically vulnerable people, a,lot of the time with lowered immune systems, people coming and going on to wards. Just like in residential homes it's bound to be an issue as patients aren't in their own separate rooms. We know distancing can help but it doesn't prevent all cases.

I could have been one of the people passing it in in hospital. When I went in we didn't know I had covid. My symptoms weren't the 'big 3' although looking back there were clues. I was in a general ward with approx 8 other people, many who were very elderly and/or infirm and frail. I was sharing the same bathroom facilities as the rest of the ward. I didn't but I was allowed to get up and sit in my chair, speak to other patients. I didn't really as I felt so rough. And as I was conscious of not wanting to catch covid I maintained high hygiene and wore my mask a lot, even in bed,

What we found out the next day was that I was the one with covid. I was quickly removed and out in a separate room on my own, but by then I'd spent a day in a wards, plus the day before in the treatment ward and most of the day before that in the 'clean' side of a and e. I'd also been to the drop in centre and the GP surgery - at their request,

So I can see how it could be passed on within hospital and medical settings, lots of ill patients and a virus where the symptoms aren't always obvious.

And my grandma caught covid in hospital. She tested negative twice beforehand, was in a few weeks and eventually tested positive twice. She hadn't been anywhere else. She didn't die from covid (it's not mentioned in her death certificate either) but she did have it when she died. So yes, catching it in hospital is a very definite issue.

[quote Redbrickwall]I know it’s the daily mail but it’s all over

So whilst our lives have been fucked, they realistically needed to improve infection control in hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9254495/Stopping-Covid-spreading-hospitals-substantial-reduction-wave-deaths.html[/quote]
This was the first wave when everything was haywire.

Not surprising initially tbh, given the way that other conditions also spread like wildfire through close populations, as it did in residential settings.

We should shut the hospitals until they can reopen safely.

@GiveMeNovocain

We should shut the hospitals until they can reopen safely.

Hospital transmission is a huge problem. There is actually a national clinical trial open that addresses this (Storm Chaser). On the trial, if you have shared a bay with someone who tests positive, you may receive an antibody infusion prophylactically. My colleagues and I are diligent about infection control but an airborne virus in an enclosed space is difficult to control. Many of our staff have caught it despite PPE. We are only allowed to wear the most protective masks (FFP3) for an aerosol generating procedure. But recent research shows that a cough generates more aerosols than CPAP. I get tested twice a week. But on the days I’m not tested I could be unwittingly spreading it. There are no easy answers. But blaming staff who are on their knees is not it.

Some of the NHS covid rules are crazy. I.e. my OH (finally) re-started chemo last week. He was told he needed a covid test before going in to have his first transfusion and pick up his carrier bag of meds. I asked whether I needed one too as I'd be going with him. To be told, no, I asked if I could have one anyway, to be told no. So, off we both went, sat together in waiting room, sat together in treatment room, sat together in consulting room as the meds were explained. Where's the sense in that? Why test one person and not the other? Also after the covid test, he was told to isolate until the hospital day - I asked if I needed to isolate to - told no! The "management" is a joke.

The only alternative to the NHS isn't "America" -- plenty of European countries can provide a blueprint for a new health service that pays staff properly and provides patients with timely, high quality treatment. The sacred cow status of the NHS means it's impossible to have these discussions publicly or politically, but it needs to happen

Yes it’s very odd how ignorant we all our about the French, German, Danish health care systems. They are all perfectly good tax payer funded systems and completely different to the NHS. Somehow we are all told it is the NHS or privatisation.

Years ago in the 60s and 70s we had ' cottage hospitals' that were used when Polio and TB was rife in the community's. They were built for isolation and the wards were spread over larger areas. Also had specialist mental health hospitals. Those buildings are now expensive ' apartments' as Mrs Thatcher said those people could be managed in the community.
All gone now of course : bigger is better it seemed. Clearly not now.
I know how hard it's been for the NHS but infection control is a problem and there are now too many stories of people being mixed with or without covid symptoms.
I understand it's an impossible situation, but while it's happening all the things we are doing outside hospitals isn't going to be enough it seems. A person with dementia isn't going to know how to use sanitizer and wander off around the wards. Buildings are old and windows don't work that well. Our local hospital was without water one hot summer a few years back for two weeks! They had to buy big bottles of water for each ward the nurse told me it was a nightmare. It was resolved , but if that happened now I dread to think.
It is depressing and I would dread having to go into hospital for anything just now.

@Kazzyhoward

Some of the NHS covid rules are crazy. I.e. my OH (finally) re-started chemo last week. He was told he needed a covid test before going in to have his first transfusion and pick up his carrier bag of meds. I asked whether I needed one too as I'd be going with him. To be told, no, I asked if I could have one anyway, to be told no. So, off we both went, sat together in waiting room, sat together in treatment room, sat together in consulting room as the meds were explained. Where's the sense in that? Why test one person and not the other? Also after the covid test, he was told to isolate until the hospital day - I asked if I needed to isolate to - told no! The "management" is a joke.

Totally agree. Im on a children's ward, we test the children but not the parent that is staying with them! On the neonatal unit they test both parents twice per week. At the next hospital they test the child and the resident parent. Another hospital they only allow one parent to visit whereas we allow both. There is no consistency.

Our ward manager has hidden the ffp3 masks and surgical gowns because doctors were using them 'inappropriately'.
We all have our own hard plastic masks so at least if we have to put a patient on cpap overnight when the ward manager isn't there we can wear our plastic mask but no chance of getting a surgical gown out of hours.

I am so sorry Lynsey81 . A devastating chain of events.

There's a lot that the NHS cannot help but it does feel as though there are things that could be done like doing lateral flow tests on day of discharge for patients.

@Kazzyhoward you definitely should be being tested. That is bizarre. We have banned all visitors from outpatient treatment areas unless they are a carer. So our patients are all going through chemo alone. It’s been this way for almost a year. Doing Lateral flow tests on visitors would help us to allow some in which would help us keep everyone safe.

[quote Redbrickwall]I know it’s the daily mail but it’s all over

So whilst our lives have been fucked, they realistically needed to improve infection control in hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9254495/Stopping-Covid-spreading-hospitals-substantial-reduction-wave-deaths.html[/quote]
Up to 40 per cent of coronavirus infections in hospital patients during the first wave of the pandemic could have been caught on NHS wards

It's important to note that this statistic is about the 1st wave.

When it's floating in the air and can therefore travel everywhere it'll be pretty hard to control

They should freaking vaccinate all willing hospital staff (doctors, nurses, cleaners, receptionists etc) first!!!!!!! Or at least along w the elderly and then teachers as they go down the list. Not sure why they didn’t.