Conspiracy theorists - mental illness or stupidity?

[Notcontent]

I know people who believe if really crazy conspiracies have always been around, but this pandemic has really brought them out of the woodwork... I mean, how could you realistically believe that Covid-19 does not exist, or that the vaccines contain microchips??

Some people who believe those things might have a low IQ and/ or poor education and so lack any “critical thinking” skills - and so might not be able to see why this is really illogical. But what about people who are clearly reasonably intelligent and well educated - like Jeremy Corbyn’s brother. Is it almost like a mental illness? Do they become so obsessed with being anti-establishment that they lose the plot?

Not trusting the government and/or mainstream media is an understandable point of view tbh.
Or even not trusting just one half of the MSM.

The problem is, everyday science and technology has far outstripped the the average persons capacity to understand it.
Look at the origins of Covid. Someone mentioned upthread the genomic sequence is compatible with natural origin. I have no way to assess the truth of that. There are some experts who point to other markers which indicate lab processes which include "breeding" some characteristic of a pathogen to be more dominant in order to invent strong defences against. As you can tell from my cack handed attempt at an explanation, I have no ability to assess that claim either.
All I can do is pick an expert to trust.

If I already am sceptical of the govt and the MSM, I know a little about how the Chinese govt operates towards their own people never mind any others, and imagining how loathe different Govts would be to pick an open fight with them, I might be swayed towards the second experts.

That may be wrong, it even may be conspiratorial, but it's not irrational. It's an outcome of normal scepticism, and perfectly acceptable levels, though low, of the complex areas of virology and geopolitics.

If I was chatting to my friends in the pub about my interest in this, some of them would laugh in my face, or maybe someone else I respect would say No, because x. Maybe someone would agree too, if course.

But theres no pub so I Google it instead. Nobody I respect is laughing in my face. The algorithm kicks in. It's all the agreeers or else flame wars by internet lunatics which are easier to write off.
So now, here I am in a rabbit hole where all the experts are saying x and sounding authoritative about it.

What can you do about that?
You cant, or at least you shouldn't, stop people for expressing their pov's.
Trouble is, you can't really rely on he market place of ideas either, in areas like this anyway, where you need a high degree of expertise to even understand the arguments, never mind pick them apart.

Maybe the only thing you can do is formulate strong institutions which people trust and respect. But, in this case, theres a strong incentive to downplay Lab Origin theories. It actually would be in the common good to try to avoid racism against Chinese people and avoid inflaming diplomatic tensions with the Chinese state. So do you make institutions trustworthy even if the truth would cause harm?

Some food for thought: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/how-british-government-subjected-thousands-people-chemical-and-biological-warfare-trials-during-cold-war-10376411.html%3famp

The problem is, everyday science and technology has far outstripped the the average persons capacity to understand it

This is a very good point. We have no way of verifying a lot of things, and so, have to go with what we're told. Given that what we're told, even by authoritative bodies, is sometimes wrong (eg which cigarette brand does your doctor recommend) we have no real way of knowing. It's natural that people will question what they're fed, and look into other options.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9231773/amp/Ex-MP-NORMAN-BAKER-reveals-day-anthrax-released-tunnel-Northern-Line.html

7days
But theres no pub so I Google it instead. Nobody I respect is laughing in my face. The algorithm kicks in. It's all the agreeers or else flame wars by internet lunatics which are easier to write off.
So now, here I am in a rabbit hole where all the experts are saying x and sounding authoritative about it.
I think this a very good point and needs to be examined, people are geting their information differently now due to internet and social media. Information is thrown at us at all times. And the fact anyone can state a fact and there is no consequences for its need to be truth. So mases of people believing something, i read somewhere that all an idea needs is one other person to believe it , so one person belives grass is blue and not green , more people who agree the more it will feel truth and then it snowballs. Nowadays things dont even have to be true to stick. Its a worrying time i think. News gathering needs to be looked at , have no idea how we can manage it, ive also read that during pandemic, conspiracy theories beliver skyrocketed thats not a coincidence

There is always a grain of truth in these things. I spent most of my adult life with someone with such views and some of what he has said has come to pass over time. I think most of it has to do with trusting authority and not taking what the mainstream says blindly. An example of this is the play on words with dying 'with' Covid rather than 'from' Covid. This opens up questions on would some of those people died regardless of Covid being in the picture? Words are powerful and when you have people who pick up on this way of wording things you then have people who start questioning the truth of what we are being told.

At the end of the day when you're an unimportant member of millions of other people those in charge dont care about you as an individual and the choices that are made are for society and some parts of that society will be disadvantaged more than others by some decisions. If you are in the group that gets side lined or fall through the cracks it might be easier to think that there are conspiracies to take away your autonomy even more. An example is the talk of vaccine passports. They could take away someone's choice on what they put in their body so they are allowed to take part normally in society. These things are fuel to such theories.

Wow, I can not believe the poster who said people who believe in conspiracy theories should be sectioned and "de-radicalised".
Just believing in something wont get you sectioned. I was in hospital with a chap who believed the government were tracking him via microchip. He got sectioned because he was living in a tent (despite having a perfectly good house),severely neglecting himself and was trying to cut the chip out all the time. Watching Youtube videos and discussing it with likeminded people wont even interest your GP.

This thread and what it implies is just sick.

I think its very alluring to some people, the sense that they r on the better side of history and the rest is just sheep following the masses. A sense of community that they may not get from their own lifes i think its similar to following a cult
I agree with you.
It must be very tempting to find a group of people who will pat each other on the back and congratulate each other for being utterly brilliant.

Someone I know has gone down that route and the only people who comment on their posts are fellow natural healer huns, who all seem to think they stand under common law with empowering energy from the goddess / stars.
I did read something about how Qanon has successfully thrived in certain health/wellbeing/new age complimentary therapy groups, but I can't remember where I read it now.

You could also ask the same question of the people who quarantine post, bleach grapes, think smelling cigarette smoke gives you Covid, think every death in the count was 100% caused by Covid (suicide included... even saw someone say it was Covid because it somehow affects your brain), believe that only people who do not wear masks spread Covid etc etc.

I honestly believe there will be people who will continue to lock themselves down long after all this is over.

@XenoBitch

You could also ask the same question of the people who quarantine post, bleach grapes, think smelling cigarette smoke gives you Covid, think every death in the count was 100% caused by Covid (suicide included... even saw someone say it was Covid because it somehow affects your brain), believe that only people who do not wear masks spread Covid etc etc.

I honestly believe there will be people who will continue to lock themselves down long after all this is over.

Im not sure how going to the other extreme to try and prove ur point about one conspiracy theory really proves anything, yes there are people who have extreme views in all sorts and what?

@Duggeehugs82 you don't see anyone call them mentally ill or stupid.
So why it is acceptable to do the same for people who question things?

The people who r extreme living due to covid are not conspiracy theoriest they do not belive something is being covered up, they are just being super cautious and careful during a global pandemic. (Rightly or wrongly) That is why they are not being called stuipd or mentally ill and to be fair the general consensus on the thread is conspiracy theoriests are neither stupid or mentally ill. So its a pointless comparison

[quote XenoBitch]@Duggeehugs82 you don't see anyone call them mentally ill or stupid.
So why it is acceptable to do the same for people who question things?[/quote]
There is also a big difference to questioning things in general and full on believing conspiracy theories as fact. Some conspiracy theories are not even related to reality

Let's get this thread shut down. Disgusting arrogance and attitude. "Profoundly thick". Disgusting.

Poor education, mental illness, low IQ, drugs, alcohol or a combination would be my thoughts. But most poor education.

[quote Bored2death2020]@rosetylersbiggun Too quick to judge. Says it all.

What's the basis for your statement? So all those doctors and scientists with PhDs and years of experience who are against the rushed vaccines or the way the pandemic is handled have lower IQ levels than those sheeple who listen to the our corrupt politicians or so called 'scientific advisers? Advisers with thousands invested in the big pharma companies and who have lots of personal gains from locking people down as long as possible?

Your second statement is even more ridiculous. With your scientific background, please explain to me how do you consider mRNA vaccines to be safe when there is literally no long term data on their safety? You don't need to be 'radicalised' as some other genius put it here, to be able to go to the manufacturers or MHRA web site to read the full data on these vaccines. It clearly states that there is no data, for instance, how these vaccines will affect fertility. Or those people who are on lots of prescription drugs. In fact, how can anyone think these brand new type of vaccines are safe when the study will be finished in Jan 2023! Until then there is no full data, just assumptions. But the government that has been caught lying so many times, continue to do so only this time they are playing with people's health.

If you want a vaccine and if you agree with the ways the gov is handling the pandemic, go for it. But don't insult other people's intelligence by making statement that you have made. People are entitled to make their own research and decisions. And most don't 'just watch a few youtube videos as you have stated.

@PrincessNutNuts - It's those who accept everything without questioning and blindly follow what they are told need to be saved from themselves.[/quote]
You don't need to be 'radicalised' as some other genius put it here, to be able to go to the manufacturers or MHRA web site to read the full data on these vaccines. It clearly states that there is no data, for instance, how these vaccines will affect fertility

But this is born of your way of looking at this. What is the reason you think impact on fertility might be an issue? By what mechanism do you think the vaccine could potentially impact fertility? Is there a logical reason why this should be a concern?

There's no data on whether it'll make you grow a new arm in 2024 either. But I've no reason to think it will…

Shame really. I might finally have a chance at Rachmaninoff.

This thread encapsulates what I find so worrying about conspiracy theorists: their refusal to debate or to entertain alternate pov, and their determination to censor and shut down discussion.

There are currently two long-running threads that are pro/for promoting conspiracy theories, both of which contain a few highly disturbing posts e.g. accusing the parents of a murdered child of having killed her, or pushing Q-Anon beliefs. As well as posts where the poster clearly hasn't given two seconds thought to whether the theory they read about is even remotely plausible, or whether the source is reliable (for example some of the posts in the other thread boil down to: are all of Diana's friends and family lying, or is Al Fayed twisting the truth for his own agenda. Is Al Fayed really such a model of honesty and integrity that his word alone is enough to calumniate a dozen or more people?). Any attempt to disagree has been met with abuse and allegations of "censorship." Yet the second someone starts an anti-conspiracy thread there's a concerted effort to get the thread removed. And at least two posters on this thread have shared posts in the past that expressly promoted or showed sympathy with Q-Anon.

Q-Anon is not "just asking questions" or "not blindly believing what MSM tells you". Q-Anon is an extremely dangerous far right wing idealogy, an attack on the very concepts of truth and democracy, and a literal cult which attempted to launch an armed coup against the United States government and against democracy itself. And the people behind Q-Anon are very clever and know how to weaponise people's fears and uncertainties about things like unreliable media and government corruption.

Some of the tactics being used on this and other threads are so transparent. It's not just the open hostility towards and attempts to censor and delete any anti-conspiracy theory or anti-Q Anon opinions, but the attempts to position hardcore conspiracy theory or hardcore far right wing ideology as simply "not blindly believing everything MSM says" or "not worshipping the British government and thinking that everything Boris Johnson does is honest and brilliant." Sorry but that's total bollocks, and it is absolutely a dissembling tactic. People will post links to or statements endorsing support for extreme far right wing conspiracy theories about Hilary Clinton eating babies and Trump secretly trying to stop the Jewish Lizard Illuminati implementing the NWO and when you contradict them, they turn around and go "OMG how dare you call me a conspiracy theorist just because I think Boris Johnson isn't the model of honesty like all you SHEEPLE do!!" It's sheer gaslighting. No one is being accused of being a conspiracy theorist just because they think the Tories are liars, or there are issues with how C-19 deaths are being recorded, come on. I literally don't know one person who doesn't think the Tories are liars, or that they've handled this pandemic well.

The idea that anyone who's not a conspiracy theorist/Q-Anon believer is a brainless sheep who believe every word the Daily Mail prints is gospel and that the Tories are a model of honesty is so arrogant and ignorant it's breath-taking. I'm sure it's convenient to invent these strawmen, but it simply is not reality. In the real world NO ONE (or almost no one) blindly believes everything the press prints, and no one (except hardcore right-wingers, ironically) holds the government up as unimpeachable models of honesty. Everyone questions the media and every questions the government, that's what being an intelligent active member of society is. Conspiracy theorists do not have the patent on asking questions and making their own minds up, no matter how much they pretend otherwise.

There's a huge difference between reading widely and with an open mind, and coming to the conclusion that the government are being shifty (I personally do not trust the government or MSM one tiny little bit and make it a point to not believe anything I read unless I'm able to assess and verify things independently) and people who blindly believe every single conspiracy theory, YouTube video, Facebook post they stumble upon. Most people in the latter category are not 'doing research' or using critical thinking skills, and it's fair to ask why certain people are vulnerable to believing every conspiracy theory they come across.

With your scientific background, please explain to me how do you consider mRNA vaccines to be safe when there is literally no long term data on their safety?

mRNA vaccines are not new. It's true that the C-19 vaccine is the first time an mRNA vaccine has been approved for the global market, but the technology itself is not new. mRNA vaccines have been researched and studied for decades (in computational models and animal studies), primarily in terms of their use in vaccines for rabies, flu, cytomegalovirus, and Zika. The reason drug companies were able to get a C-19 vaccine out so fast is because they were able to make use of all that past research into mRNA rabies and Zika vaccines. One of the first mRNA vaccine human trials (which for a rabies vaccine) started in Munich Germany in 2013 and results were published in the Lancet in 2017. So human mRNA vaccine trials have been going on for at least eight years. How many years' "long term data" do you need?

Peer reviewed journal article in the Lancet in September 2017 on the results of a human mRNA vaccine trial that ran between October 2013 - January 2016: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28754494/

There are some experts who point to other markers which indicate lab processes which include "breeding" some characteristic of a pathogen to be more dominant in order to invent strong defences against.

People always say "well some experts say..." but rarely can expand on their source. What experts? Can you name them? How do you know? Where can I find a list of their names, qualifications and CVs, alongside their on the record statements? I've looked up this whole "some experts say" thing and as far as I can see it's just one single
pair of scientists (Angus Dalgleish and Birger Sorensen), whose paper did not meet the criteria for publication in major journals, and have been accused of bias (for example they have a financial interest in a particular C19 vaccine, and their paper has been championed and promoted by the former head of MI6 who has a somewhat dubious political history). I'm all for people reading all the sources but I see nothing in Dalgleish and Sorensen's paper that makes me believe they are a more reliable and trustworthy source than the literally thousands of biologists, virologists, and geneticists from America, UK, China, Israel, France, Germany, and many other countries have examined this viruses genome and concluded the evidence proves it evolved naturally. Which is more likely, that thousands of scientists from dozens of different countries had all agreed to enter into a vast conspiracy of silence in order to protect the Chinese authorities, or that two relatively minor scientists with potential bias have discovered something everyone else has either missed or is lying about?

If people really want to "do the research" it's very easy to buy a biology textbook or take a few Coursera or EdX courses on the basics of microbiology, and then start reading peer reviewed journal articles on JStor.

@PinkTonic It takes years to develop vaccines and then years to test them to ensure safety. Pfizer is well know for paying biggest fines for a range of breaches of safety and experimental drug and vaccines trials. They themselves said that there is no data how the vaccine might affect fertility and the vac was not recommended for pregnant women when it was first approved by MHRA but then 2 weeks later this was changed that to 'to data that it can negatively affect pregnancy'. Why the change of mind? Also there were quite a few articles in BMJ on this very subject.

But I question the reason for gov to push the vaccine, why on earth a healthy adult 30-50 years old would take an experimental vaccine which has literally no long term data on how it might affect you in the future to protect yourself from a virus with 99,8% recovery rate? I would rather trust my immune system to fight off the virus if I get it without taking risks. This does not make me an antivaxer as I had plenty of vaccines dones in the childhood. But I am very much against the rushed vaccines without even 2-3 years safety data.

Like I said, people are entitled to decide whether they take the vaccine or not; this is down to them. To me, the risks are much higher than the benefits. And worst, even after you take the vaccine you still need to wear masks, social-distance, you can still catch it and transmit it! So what's the point??????

@rosetylersbiggun

This thread encapsulates what I find so worrying about conspiracy theorists: their refusal to debate or to entertain alternate pov, and their determination to censor and shut down discussion.

There are currently two long-running threads that are pro/for promoting conspiracy theories, both of which contain a few highly disturbing posts e.g. accusing the parents of a murdered child of having killed her, or pushing Q-Anon beliefs. As well as posts where the poster clearly hasn't given two seconds thought to whether the theory they read about is even remotely plausible, or whether the source is reliable (for example some of the posts in the other thread boil down to: are all of Diana's friends and family lying, or is Al Fayed twisting the truth for his own agenda. Is Al Fayed really such a model of honesty and integrity that his word alone is enough to calumniate a dozen or more people?). Any attempt to disagree has been met with abuse and allegations of "censorship." Yet the second someone starts an anti-conspiracy thread there's a concerted effort to get the thread removed. And at least two posters on this thread have shared posts in the past that expressly promoted or showed sympathy with Q-Anon.

Q-Anon is not "just asking questions" or "not blindly believing what MSM tells you". Q-Anon is an extremely dangerous far right wing idealogy, an attack on the very concepts of truth and democracy, and a literal cult which attempted to launch an armed coup against the United States government and against democracy itself. And the people behind Q-Anon are very clever and know how to weaponise people's fears and uncertainties about things like unreliable media and government corruption.

Some of the tactics being used on this and other threads are so transparent. It's not just the open hostility towards and attempts to censor and delete any anti-conspiracy theory or anti-Q Anon opinions, but the attempts to position hardcore conspiracy theory or hardcore far right wing ideology as simply "not blindly believing everything MSM says" or "not worshipping the British government and thinking that everything Boris Johnson does is honest and brilliant." Sorry but that's total bollocks, and it is absolutely a dissembling tactic. People will post links to or statements endorsing support for extreme far right wing conspiracy theories about Hilary Clinton eating babies and Trump secretly trying to stop the Jewish Lizard Illuminati implementing the NWO and when you contradict them, they turn around and go "OMG how dare you call me a conspiracy theorist just because I think Boris Johnson isn't the model of honesty like all you SHEEPLE do!!" It's sheer gaslighting. No one is being accused of being a conspiracy theorist just because they think the Tories are liars, or there are issues with how C-19 deaths are being recorded, come on. I literally don't know one person who doesn't think the Tories are liars, or that they've handled this pandemic well.

The idea that anyone who's not a conspiracy theorist/Q-Anon believer is a brainless sheep who believe every word the Daily Mail prints is gospel and that the Tories are a model of honesty is so arrogant and ignorant it's breath-taking. I'm sure it's convenient to invent these strawmen, but it simply is not reality. In the real world NO ONE (or almost no one) blindly believes everything the press prints, and no one (except hardcore right-wingers, ironically) holds the government up as unimpeachable models of honesty. Everyone questions the media and every questions the government, that's what being an intelligent active member of society is. Conspiracy theorists do not have the patent on asking questions and making their own minds up, no matter how much they pretend otherwise.

There's a huge difference between reading widely and with an open mind, and coming to the conclusion that the government are being shifty (I personally do not trust the government or MSM one tiny little bit and make it a point to not believe anything I read unless I'm able to assess and verify things independently) and people who blindly believe every single conspiracy theory, YouTube video, Facebook post they stumble upon. Most people in the latter category are not 'doing research' or using critical thinking skills, and it's fair to ask why certain people are vulnerable to believing every conspiracy theory they come across.

I completely agree , its laughable that some even suggest its not being deleted by admin because they r some conspiracy behind it

* meant to say
2 weeks later this was changed to 'no data is available that it can negatively affect pregnancy'. Why the change of mind?

Believing or entertaining a few conspiracy are probably a sign of critical thinking.

But when you believe most or all of them, I think it's a MH issue. I know someone who thinks covid is made up, trump would stay in power etc, etc and they are saying things that they could very easily find the explanation for with Google in the first two results. I had covid. I had classic symptoms and they seemed to be implying either I'm lying or i was lied to.

So theirs a bug going around that makes you loose your taste and smell and gives you a cough with no cold like symptoms? That pretty new? Lots of people have had it? What is the chance it's a virus going round? To them, no chance.

I actually find them quite terrifying suddenly.

Say it's a over reaction, its not that bad really, not that many have really died purely because they caught covid? I could agree to disagree and accept the POV. But none of it's TRUE? Bit insulting and frightening thought process.

Another friend likes her fair share of conspiracies, but once they are widely debunked she moves on. The other friend just digs deeper saying people are blind and stupid and invests in her bunker.

To be honest I look down on those who have an irrational fear of covid jus as much

People washing shopping
People in their 30/40 who are scared (cev aside)
People who blame those who meet a friend yet are in bubbles themselves
People who are scared to go to work yet expect colleagues to ‘hold the fort’

All of those I feel are thick as their fear - in most cases- it’s irrational and stems from mh as anxiety in general

In real life no one I know gives a shit about covid - fear wise I mean