Longer school days to make up for lost learning

[StitchInLime]

Source: Various newspapers, give it a Google (admittedly with a right wing lean)

Apparently one of the options being considered, nothing set in stone of course but for the purposes of discussion...

AIBU to feel both joy and sadness at the prospect of this (joy for me so I can claw back work hours, joy for children so they can claw back some school time but sadness for my teacher friends and all teachers who will need to add more hours to already heavy workload).

Pre covid my dc did clubs after school anyway eg coding, tennis, drama.

I'm a SEN Specialist Primary Teacher with 20 years' experience. I've been working as a HLTA for three years and absolutely love it. I actually get to work with the kids in my class and have time to get to know them, but I also have time for my own three children. The pay is horrendous but it's not all about that.
I was considering returning to teaching from a financial pov but all this really isn't helping to persuade me!

Quite. I would oppose this, as would my DDs. They would feel it was a punishment, and they have suffered enough in the last 12 months.

@storminabuttercup

Not being goady here but every time the subject of teachers working extra hours comes up it's met with 'already working full time'. I totally get teachers don't work 9-3 there's marking etc, but we are not in normal times, when something needs doing in my job I work extra as do most I assume, doctors, nurses etc are all working crazy shifts. Why are some school staff so reluctant to do that bit extra? I'm not saying do it for free but I know a few who would happily work more to catch kids up.

Apart from a few children who are not completing the work set, I do not believe the children in my year group will need to catch up. Even if those children were offered extra lessons, I very much doubt they would take up the offer. The children are being set daily work for maths, reading, English and science/history/geography, as well as optional art and P.E. There are live English and maths lessons each day and teachers/T.A.s are online all day to answer questions/support, as well as mark and give feedback on the work they are submitting. They are covering the curriculum they would be doing this term if we were in school, and whilst it's obviously not as good as being in school, I feel our children are getting a good education under the circumstances.

[quote FizzyPepsi]@BonnesVacances

neu.org.uk/media/13906/view

This is the long list of demands that the NEU has- including teachers 'not being subjected to excessive screen time' and 'pre-recorded lessons are the NEU's preference'.[/quote]
That isn't a statement that they oppose online lessons.

Recorded lessons are great so far as parents are concerned: it means that their child won't miss a lesson if they're unable to log on at a defined time, and when they're juggling two or three children's lessons with limited IT none of their children miss out.

If any change is needed to the school day for their return, it should be made temporarily SHORTER (as in a phased return to ease them back in) not LONGER fgs!

Can you imaging being off work sick for a year then when you go back being expected to work longer hours than usual to ‘make up for lost time’?! That’s a recipe for psychological meltdown. (I say this as a mental health professional and mother, and someone who was married to a teacher)

@Doublefaced

Why are there countless threads where teachers claim that every single teacher in the country works 60 hours+ a week? When so many if MNers who are teachers, married to teachers, closely related to teachers, best mates with teachers know that it simply isn’t true? As I always say on these threads, there are excellent teachers. Motivated, enthusiastic and caring. There are others who are currently doing the absolute minimum. And there is NOTHING that repeated threads on MN claiming the 60+ week will do to persuade those of us who know different.

Are you suggesting that all teachers SHOULD be doing 60 hours per week, and that those who only do contracted hours are some how slacking?

Which ever way you cut it, something somewhere is wrong with this dynamic in terms of working conditions...

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

‘Lost learning’ is a fallacy.

It’s about meeting government targets/ league tables. And that is all it’s about.

25 years a teacher. I hope this resets education instead of destroying the mental health of teens

This, absolutely. The pressure we put our children under is insane. I’m teaching maths to foundation GCSE students that I studied as a top grade O level student back in the day, and maths to higher GCSE students that I learnt at A level. A revision book that was 90 pages long for the old GCSE version is 140 pages long for the 9-1 version. The amount we cram into our children is dreadful.

Years ago, almost no one got very good grades and no one cared. I got into a Russell Group uni with A level grades you’d struggle to get into any university with nowadays. The expectation was less, and the pressure was so much less.

The children are only competing with each other to meet ever harder targets the government has set. We need to lower the pressure instead of piling it on to already stressed young people who have been through a very tough year.

There was an increase in people training to teach in 2008 due to the recession, some great people came into schools from financial services, and lots left quite quickly because of hours and the reality of teaching challenging kids.

It's great that more are training and hopefully it will really help kids to make good progress over the next couple of years. But retention is a huge problem and as soon as the economy picks up we will be back to struggling to employ staff, particularly for middle management. I'd be amazed if there isn't a shortage of headteachers next year.

My school recently advertised for a SENCO, we've got 2 people on staff qualified but neither want the job, we had one application, no idea if it's suitable. As I said before we're really struggling to recruit maths teachers, and we're genuinely a great school to work at, higher than average retention rates and older than average teachers.

My youngest is year 6 and my son and daughter between them had 5 years of primary education when they didn't have a teacher in their 1st or 2nd year of teaching, my daughter is in year 8 and only 1 of the teachers who taught her at primary is still there. Most of the teachers left teaching.

They need time and opportunity to engage with each other, to have fun together and to just be in a social context.

I think this is exactly the point.

If we think of the most vulnerable, those who have been at the greatest disadvantage during lockdown (and the rest of the time), what they need is:

• Conversation with other children
• Social time with peers
• Individual or small group attention from adults
• Exercise
• Time outdoors
• Experiences. All children will be poorer in experience terms than they usually would have been this year, but the most vulnerable who lack that 'capital' at the best of times will be particularly badly hit.
• Physical care - food, clothes, personal hygiene, access to doctors and dentists
• Face to face prompt and intensive access to expert support workers - social workers, SaLT, play therapists, psychologists, CAMHS, family support workers.

All of this is needed BEFORE anyone looks at academic gaps. None of it can be achieved through more time in classrooms doing 'lessons'.

If every vulnerable child received all of the above, even just through holiday groups over Easter, then they would be in a FAR better position to take advantage of the normal hours of schooling for the remaining term of the school year, and if repeated over the summer, would be in an excellent position for next year.

Using the extended hours for extra-curricular activity sounds great - for NT children. I worry about children with SEN who need routine, struggle with transitions, struggle with noise, have social communication difficulties, etc - to say nothing of those who have school-based anxiety and depression. All the more so if these activities are being run by volunteers who don't know about their SEN or how to meet their needs. Would those children be allowed to opt out?

nope, won't be signing up to that here.

As important as catching up on learning will be catching up on normality. We certainly won't be ok with a new phase of 'cram like crazy' - we will hope to go back to a routine, to the chance to go back to clubs, to socialise, to be normal.

it'll be a flat no to that from pretty much everyone I think. No more shredded nerves, thanks.

@MillieEpple

With the caveat that existing teachers already work full time and this shouldnt fall on their shoulders, I dont think it is disastrous to put in place some sort of after school catch up provision for those who need it, especially at primary level. Im less sure how it would work for secondary. As a school we already use pupil preminum money to pay for clubs where there is a benefit for a child - so a child might go to a singing club to support their English, or a dance club to support their motor skills and listening or a games/lego club if the teacher thinks it will help with maths.

Clubs is a great idea Building soft skills And learning at ssme time Far more vasuable

Extra acadrmic tesching not so much

@FishWithoutABike

I think offering ‘catch up’ lessons to the children that need it is a good idea. Maths club etc. Also offering them in the summer holidays. I know many teachers/TAs who would be willingness to do a week or 2 in the summer.

Offering private catch-up tuition on a one-on-one basis to students over Zoom would be a good side line for teachers sitting around at home. There are plenty of paranoid parents out there with the disposable income who'll pay £50 an hour to have their anxieties taken away.

For those who are desperately trying to stir 😜 here is an extra large spoon to help you👍🥄

ThelmaNotLouise
Of those trainees, an estimated third will quit within five years

That estimated third includes teachers who move to independent schools, teachers on maternity leave, teachers who want to spend a few years working overseas... Many haven't quit teaching altogether - and other teachers return to the state sector.

The education system was a mess pre Covid.
The curriculum is more rigorous, and traditional for high ability students and is too challenging, biting and irrelevant for weaker students. How the hell is it fair that an academically weak kid can work their arse off and still only be able to achieve grades 2s and 3s .
The national teacher shortage and bullshit advertising campaign are very telling.
Bring some fun, joy and laughter back into schools. I loved being at school in the 8ps and 90s. I love being a teacher now. But 'supporting'/cajoling/forcing teenagers to study some of the current curriculum is tedious for us all! I really hope we can reset 🤞

The DC will have had less than a term in school in a whole school year by the time this is over. Rather than “catching up” by flogging them until they’ve done an extra year’s work on top of whatever year they are in, which as this proposal is for about an extra 1/3 of the school day, presumably that would take 3 years we need to either take one year’s worth of material out of the curriculum, or really think about getting the whole cohort to redo the last year of education they are in, and hold the current 3/4yos in nursery for an extra year.

They do not need to be eased back into education on longer days and harder workloads!

As a "freelancing" 1:1 SEN HLTA in mainstream education I've seen first-hand the positive impact I've been able to make - playing with a Year 6 in a forest school mud kitchen, baking cupcakes with a Year 4 child who had never mixed ingredients.
I'm also a qualified teacher and know that for kids like the ones I work with, sitting down to learn English or maths isn't really what they need at all.

I think we have to look at this from the point of view of the children first.

Not their parents.

Not their teachers.

Not the politicians.

I can see that a couple of after school sessions of practicals would be of benefit to those A-level and GCSE students who have done e.g. Science subjects or DT or PE only online this term, so have missed out on these experiences.

I can see that those who have had difficulty accessing the online learning due to poor IT, for example, would benefit from some 1:1 or small group tutoring to cover the missed material.

Those who have SEN and for whom differentiation or support has been minimal due to the limitations of online learning would probably be best helped through completely adapted timetables for a while, as they are unlikely to be best placed to benefit from a longer school day.

All children would benefit from more physical and social activities.

I don't think that any of this suggests a longer 'classroom' day for all, though a longer 'day of provision' might be helpful, with a huge focus on social, practical, physical and artistic activities in the extra hours - not led by school staff at all.

@Chosennone

The education system was a mess pre Covid. The curriculum is more rigorous, and traditional for high ability students and is too challenging, biting and irrelevant for weaker students. How the hell is it fair that an academically weak kid can work their arse off and still only be able to achieve grades 2s and 3s . The national teacher shortage and bullshit advertising campaign are very telling. Bring some fun, joy and laughter back into schools. I loved being at school in the 8ps and 90s. I love being a teacher now. But 'supporting'/cajoling/forcing teenagers to study some of the current curriculum is tedious for us all! I really hope we can reset 🤞

Hear, hear

By doing the longer day, the children do an equivalent of an extra day a week at school.

And many private schools have shorter terms. So it all evens out in the end.

It is also probably worth saying that in primary at least the need to 'catch up' [academically] may be something of an illusion.

Where i work, we assess children relatively formally at the end of every term.

When the class came back after being out of school since March, with the much more limited asynchronous online learning we were doing last year, some aspects of their work were well below where we would normally expect.

By Christmas, their assessments were

a) in line with where they had left off the previous year - ie if they were exceeding expectations for the previous year in March they were exceeding expectations for that point in the current year by December and
b) in line with historical norms for previous cohorts at the same point in the same year group

I am not saying that there were 'no gaps left' (there are topics in e.g. Maths which we had not yet re-covered), but even under last term's strange teaching circumstances, children of all abilities recovered pretty much all the ground they had lost from may - September within the Autumn term.

Knowledge lost will be even lower this time, because online learning is so much more intensive. What has been lost is experiences to write and talk about, social experiences and physical fitness.

@MuckyPlucky

If any change is needed to the school day for their return, it should be made temporarily SHORTER (as in a phased return to ease them back in) not LONGER fgs!

Can you imaging being off work sick for a year then when you go back being expected to work longer hours than usual to ‘make up for lost time’?! That’s a recipe for psychological meltdown. (I say this as a mental health professional and mother, and someone who was married to a teacher)

That's a really good point you make @MuckyPlucky. When you that from an adults perspective it makes sense. I have had long periods of work off due to ill health and unfailingly always had a phased return. Having to suddenly work normal hours never mind longer would cause major problems with mental health.

Hilarious that posters think that teachers who expect to be paid for their hours, and treat it like a job rather than a vocation (or civic duty) are monsters who should leave the profession, whilst simultaneously thinking that the rise in teacher training applications seen because the economy is busting will solve the problem.

You look at any research and you'll see that one of the biggest influences on learning and progress is smaller class sizes. Public schools know this and parents pay for this. But the government isn't really looking to help state children catch-up. It's not going to spend the money. It's looking for window dressing on the cheap. Usually that is achieved by instructing schools/teachers to do it for free.