Longer school days to make up for lost learning

[StitchInLime]

Source: Various newspapers, give it a Google (admittedly with a right wing lean)

Apparently one of the options being considered, nothing set in stone of course but for the purposes of discussion...

AIBU to feel both joy and sadness at the prospect of this (joy for me so I can claw back work hours, joy for children so they can claw back some school time but sadness for my teacher friends and all teachers who will need to add more hours to already heavy workload).

Teachers cannot be key workers if they are able to not attend work for 18 months+

Are you the same poster who thought the bin men only worked one day a week 'cos that's when you saw them in your street?

there was already a recruitment crisis before this even started

8 Jan 2021 - Teacher training applications up by 42% ...

The new data suggests that the application surge since the early summer of 2020 has continued into this year, with the number of [postgraduate] applications 42 per cent higher than the same time last year. This increase is evenly spread across primary and secondary phases.

December marks the eighth consecutive month in which ITT [initial teacher training] application numbers have been higher than the previous cycle. The pandemic-induced uncertainty in the wider labour market has made the relative security of a teaching career an attractive option for graduates of all ages, which is good news for teacher supply in England after years of under-recruitment.

www.nfer.ac.uk/news-events/nfer-blogs/teacher-training-applications-up-by-42-percent/

@yomommasmomma,

So? Are you saying you'd be happy for your children's wraparound care (and you own working hours) to be increased even further? Why would any of us want that?

I think offering ‘catch up’ lessons to the children that need it is a good idea. Maths club etc. Also offering them in the summer holidays. I know many teachers/TAs who would be willingness to do a week or 2 in the summer.

The government has never been able to solve the original issues

This government has created a lot of them.

Teacher training applications up by 42%

So we're going to be overrun with maths and physics teachers now?

No wait, even in the middle of a pandemic they failed to meet their recruitment targets there. The situation is desperate and will be getting worse.

[quote Clavinova]there was already a recruitment crisis before this even started

8 Jan 2021 - Teacher training applications up by 42% ...

The new data suggests that the application surge since the early summer of 2020 has continued into this year, with the number of [postgraduate] applications 42 per cent higher than the same time last year. This increase is evenly spread across primary and secondary phases.

December marks the eighth consecutive month in which ITT [initial teacher training] application numbers have been higher than the previous cycle. The pandemic-induced uncertainty in the wider labour market has made the relative security of a teaching career an attractive option for graduates of all ages, which is good news for teacher supply in England after years of under-recruitment.

www.nfer.ac.uk/news-events/nfer-blogs/teacher-training-applications-up-by-42-percent/[/quote]
Increases in numbers of teachers training is good, but not enough.

It is retention that is of major concern within teaching.

Teachers training this year and last have had, on the whole, much worse training than ever and are much less prepared to teach. (I'm sure many are absolutely fabulous, but there is no way that the average standard of NQT this year isn't lower than normal).

So, if more teachers leave than normal (I've no idea if they have or will), then schools will, more than ever, be staffed by inexperienced teachers. It would not a good state of affairs.

The pandemic-induced uncertainty in the wider labour market has made the relative security of a teaching career an attractive option for graduates of all ages, which is good news for teacher supply in England after years of under-recruitment.

This make sense, my friends who are teachers enjoy it & are paid well. I don't have a problem with longer days or revision/catch up classes. They already exist in some schools & my friends often did them for the extra cash.

But job happiness is very dependent on the school/headteacher ethos I think.

@yomommasmomma If you work out the maths my children are in childcare half an hour less than yours then as they start earlier in the day. The point I was making is if not children are in childcare til 5 when I finish at 3.30, if I’m required to work li get hours then they’ll need longer provision in the evening. I don’t really want my children in school from 7.30am to potentially 7pm (I’m not even sure their school would even open that late in the evening.)

Do increased teacher applications translate fully into teachers in training? Have the training courses got the necessary expanded capacity?

@Watchingbehindmyhands

Why not resign before now, if things are indeed so intolerable for you

You know that many have resigned? That there are schools running whole year group classes in halls in some subjects because they can’t get replacement staff? That the Government has been offering incentives, tax free, amounting to £thousands for years and years in an attempt to incentivise people to train? That the Government continues to spend £thousands on advertising to get people to train on TV, radio, via the internet and on bus stop posters? That the average life of a teacher is now less than 5 years? That this pandemic has seen many 50 something teachers take their pensions and run? You are also aware that teachers have massive transferable skills and on the whole, do not struggle to find employment elsewhere?

You can mock us all you want but you seriously need to be careful what you wish for because I’d this pandemic has shown how under investment impacts the NHS, it is also clear that education is on the brink also. You want your kids educated by trained, motivated, astute professionals? Perhaps work with us, rather than against us.

This. I left a career in international law to teach after having children as I thought I would have more time with my family (less travel, shorted hours). Ultimately all it transpired to be was a massive paycut and a huge lesson in how much - despite being professionals - teachers are not trusted in their judgement and are often openly criticised and vilified. I am fortunate in I have been able to walk away and move my career in a different direction again, because the few years I spent in the profession (aside from the children) really were not enjoyable. Attitudes of the media and parents really need to change because we are on the brink of a serious recruitment and retention crisis in teaching.

Yeah. Applications up 42%. Not surprising in a pandemic with massive job loss. Not all those applications will be suitable. Many won’t get on a course. Then there’s the issue of completing the course, the NQT year and remaining in post over 5 years later.

[quote noblegiraffe]The disparity in provision between schools is a disgrace.

That's true, even when schools are open. I don't know why more parents haven't been kicking off about it before now. Possibly because they assume that their school is fine when what's going on is out of sight.

I started a thread about it back in June and got 54 responses. Threads bashing individual teachers run to hundreds of posts.

The education system is crumbling and parents are focusing on the wrong issue entirely.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3941702-Annoyed-your-kid-isn-t-having-zoom-lessons-or-school-contact-or-not-going-back-to-school-yet[/quote]
I missed this thread, but it is absolutely spot on.

The discrepancy with SEN provision is particularly huge, and for the last few years schools have been forced to lose huge proportions of their support staff. Class sizes are ridiculous.

Parents have to make schooling decisions based on trivial reasons or how good a school is at 'selling' itself. Lockdown has been quite a good insight for friends of mine who see how dry, joyless and lacking in any creativity or differentiation the provision in a local school is. It's always oversubscribed because it's in the most middle class area in town, but it is seriously underfunded.

So many typos, sorry!

We are storing up problems ahead if those applications are in part due to people trying out teaching because there's not much else out there.
Even dedicated people with a vocation struggle in their first posts.

And dh works in admissions for teacher-training. Yes, numbers are up, but the quality of candidates across the board is not.

Surely depending on age is there not a finite about of information and learning kids can take on board in one day? Isn’t that why the day is actually made up of quite a lot of play, sport, assemblies etc

[quote Clavinova]there was already a recruitment crisis before this even started

8 Jan 2021 - Teacher training applications up by 42% ...

The new data suggests that the application surge since the early summer of 2020 has continued into this year, with the number of [postgraduate] applications 42 per cent higher than the same time last year. This increase is evenly spread across primary and secondary phases.

December marks the eighth consecutive month in which ITT [initial teacher training] application numbers have been higher than the previous cycle. The pandemic-induced uncertainty in the wider labour market has made the relative security of a teaching career an attractive option for graduates of all ages, which is good news for teacher supply in England after years of under-recruitment.

www.nfer.ac.uk/news-events/nfer-blogs/teacher-training-applications-up-by-42-percent/[/quote]
That's terrific, the profession needs more people coming into it to counter all those leaving, especially if they are parents who want to improve the system from the inside having seen how tough it is for schools. Retention is the problem though. Of those trainees, an estimated third will quit within five years and one is six won't even make it until the end of the first year.

Puzzler is right. Many of those who start teacher training don’t even get through the training year in normal times and those who do, often do three years or so and quit. Add to that the anger felt by those in their 40s and 50s who are leaving after 20 years and more and the education system is stuffed. Yes, redundancies elsewhere might boost numbers in the short term but experience shows most won’t hack it, especially when the economy starts to pick up again.

Believe me, you're kids don't need more that 4 hours a day to learn. If they need more than that, you are either pushing them too hard, or they are not enjoying themselves, or not capable, and you need to lay off and stop piling stress onto them. These are our kids. We don't need to pile our own anxieties and worries onto them.

We are storing up problems ahead if those applications are in part due to people trying out teaching because there's not much else out there.
Even dedicated people with a vocation struggle in their first posts.

Yep, it's why I know I could never be a teacher. I don't have the patience and I don't have a passion for education. My OH, on the other hand, retrained in his late 30s, and loves it. He found his calling.

It's also true that many people who start teacher training have no intention of teaching. The huge tax free bursaries are incentive enough to do a year before you go off to a job in the private sector, well away from teaching.

If there's money available, I'd like to see it being used to help plug the gaps in children's arts, sports, creative and practical learning, not academic content. If my Y7 and Y11 DCs are to be kept behind at school to play netball, rounders, in the orchestra or the chess club, great. They (and their teachers) have worked extremely hard during this lockdown but the catching up they need to do is largely social and arts/sports based so that's the only type of catch-up I'd be willing for them to attend. DH and I are both teachers and are teaching our full timetables online, at school. In addition, I'm visiting students at home both for pastoral visits and to drop off resources. Our own students don't need more of the same once schools are fully open again. They need time and opportunity to engage with each other, to have fun together and to just be in a social context.

I can’t see teaching unions going for this anyway. But also the children need the breaks and normal school hours. More will be more than most could take and they wouldn’t learn or concentrate anyway.

@Lemonsole

The catching up that they need more than anything else is in sports, the arts, socialising, creating, hanging out with each other, Scouts, Guides and having part-time jobs. They're a vital part of teenage life, as preparation for adulthood, and this loss to them is just not being acknowledged. Teenagers need to be with their friends in multiple contexts that aren't just classrooms or guided by adults towards exams.

^^This! All my dc have had great teaching (i appreciate that may not be the case for all obviously) but i really don't think theyve lost out academically. But everything else - social, sport, d of e, arts, just fun stuff generally... that's what they've missed out on. No way i want them in school any extra time at all!