Longer school days to make up for lost learning

[StitchInLime]

Source: Various newspapers, give it a Google (admittedly with a right wing lean)

Apparently one of the options being considered, nothing set in stone of course but for the purposes of discussion...

AIBU to feel both joy and sadness at the prospect of this (joy for me so I can claw back work hours, joy for children so they can claw back some school time but sadness for my teacher friends and all teachers who will need to add more hours to already heavy workload).

@Theimanotlouise

Quit your job then.

@CrackOpenTheGin Longer days give all of the SAHP's more time to themselves too I'm guessing?

@noblegiraffe

This is all a distraction from the fact that the government put millions into a national catch-up tutoring initiative that has failed to take off.

I was just about to post about that. What happened to all the catch-up the government promised in September? Didn't they spend £1billion on it? Has any parent on here got a child that's benefited from it? Or any teachers had it happen in their school?

I'm a qualified maths teacher, who left the profession 5 years ago. I thought I'd be useful and signed up with some of the companies charged with delivering these tutor programmes. Turns out they all wanted me to work for free or for well below the market rate.

Where has the £1billion gone?

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

It wouldn't be as simple as bringing in a handful of Mums and unemployed supply teachers for the late afternoon. If you're keeping an entire school open for another 3 hours, you'd need an entire school's worth of teaching staff, TAs, First Aiders, Receptionists, Cleaning supervisors, SLT on site, another member of the site team, another IT manager, an additional safeguarding person. You'd need all of these volunteers to have full access to all the personal data of every student. They'd need to access the behavioural system and have people there to escalate to/enforce sanctions the following day. The First Aiders would need access to all the medical data, safety plans for students who have previously self harmed, knowledge of who is Looked After. And you'd need a full handover ever day. You'd need security passes, key fobs, photocopying cards, system log ins, email addresses.

They'd also have to be accountable for any issues with standards in behaviour and academic achievement. After all, if you're leaving your kid in school for another 15 hours a week, you want them to not be taught things incorrectly. You want them to be taught what they need to pass the boards' criteria.

The simple logistics behind it are prohibitive. And the cost.

Oh, plus as this Covid thing isn't about to disappear, you'd also be introducing another 50-100 contacts into the premises each day. I'm sure the 'volunteers' would be slightly more difficult to find in such large numbers, too - they'd need to be able to afford to live without pay, not have childcare costs of their own, be prepared to work in the toughest schools as well as the best - and if you're a volunteer, there's significantly less reason to be in a place where the buildings are falling apart and behaviour is far beyond the odd tut and 'but she's doing it too!' than somebody who takes it because they've got bills to pay.

I can see TeachFirst wanting to get in on it. And some of the other Free School/Academies being interested, as long as they get paid what they will determine to be the Market Rate. But I don't think it is actually feasible.

At last! A sensible, considered explanation as to why it won't work. 👏

And proof that whoever tipped off the papers about it – Gavin Williamson, presumably – doesn't have a clue how schools work.

Yep. Lots of head of dept jobs coming up round here. Possibly cos it's a shit of a job. When I started teaching, I thought I'd be hod one day. Now, having worked under 3 who burned out and either stepped down or left teaching, and seen countless others jn other subjects go the same way, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

I think it would be great if schools get the funding and support for quality extracurricular activities.

I was recently in meeting where we were looking at school data, and what really jumped out at me is the high amount of children listed as causing concern/significantly behind/far below expected levels for PE. Now, it's quite possible that the expected levels are just not fit for purpose, but just in my area having schools list over a third of children in a secondary year group (compared to the highest being 10-14% for English or maths) listed that way, it may be time to consider how we 'catch up' other areas of children's development that families might also struggle to provide just as teachers are already doing in many academic areas. I think quality school clubs can be a great way to do that. Many other education systems already have that built in, the British systems doesn't so much and it would need funding and support.

It seems very strange that there is no minimum standards as to what schools have to provide

There is, this lockdown. There wasn't, last lockdown.

3 hours of work should be provided for KS1 (this is bonkers), 4 hours for KS2 (also bonkers, particularly for Y3) and 5 for secondary. This should involve some teaching input, which could be live lessons, pre-recorded by the teacher, or using other video resources like Oak academy or White Rose.

I don’t think much ‘catch up’ and ‘narrowing of the gap’ will happen in reality, but the government needs to make a noise about doing it.

The practicalities of funding and providing such catch-up in a meaningful way which is targeted to individuals, ,make it pretty much impossible. All children have lost out in some way and that reality will just be absorbed into life and their future educations. When younger ones take exams I. The future, grade boundaries can be lowered and they will progress to the next stage, just like those last year did and those this year will too.

Those who were already disadvantaged probably have a larger gap now and it will remain larger. Those who are disadvantaged are hit harder by most difficulties that face nations....the health consequences of Covid have hit the poor harder and poorer areas have had more of it, and more will lose their jobs and face financial and educational hardships too.

Play schemes over the summer to aid socialisation and confidence building, catch-up funding for schools to use in term time, can all only have a very limited effect. First of all the funding will be insufficient and quite simply the time lost in the classroom cannot be regained. Those disadvantaged children who spent all of last year out of school from March until July, had sporadic attendance from Sept to Dec and then have been out from Jan until March at the earliest, have lost close to a year. There is no way to magically find a year of time, even with lots of money. People don’t want their kids staying late at school or going in the hols for academic work and even if they did, you can’t replicate a year in the classroom in a few sessions. Funding for in-school help might mean disadvantaged kids get some hours of 1-2-1 help...that can make a difference but it’s still not a year in the classroom.

The reality is the time can’t be made up. We just have to largely move on from where we are now, rather than looking backwards and thinking about where we would be normally. We live in the new time, not the old.

‘The entire cohort has lost the same amount of education. Just adjust the exam content and assess them on the topics they have learned. The outcome will be the same in terms of overall assessment.’

No. They absolutely haven’t. The disparity in provision between schools is a disgrace.

[quote Yoshinori]@Theimanotlouise

Quit your job then.[/quote]
I'm not a teacher, actually. My partner is and he's been working round the clock for the past year to make sure his pupils are keeping up. I'd love him to quit, but he loves teaching.

[quote FizzyPepsi]@Taikoo

I don't expect the unions to cooperate with this. But equally it shouldn't be a choice- it should be a clear instruction from government that it is teachers' civic duty to support catch up programmes.

Unions or teachers unwilling to co-operate should be subject to termination and the imposition of new contracts.[/quote]
Civic duty. That’s very funny especially when you consider the government’s attitude to teachers during this pandemic. You are trolling, aren’t you?

Basically, it is a very bad idea as children will be too tired to learn. But if you pay overtime, some teachers might want to do it. If I’m still teaching, I wouldn’t but some people might like the cash - I really can’t see anyone doing it for free. It should be voluntary for children too though. Most parents will want their children to be socialising with friends and family and having a chance to do their hobbies.

valentinescmalentine I didn't mean to come across as rude. But after months of reading so many teacher-bashing posts on MN it's hard to do be defensive. I'm not even a teacher, my OH is one. I see how hard he works, I see how much he cares about his class, and it's upsetting when posters say teachers should be sacked for not agreeing to do even more hours!

FizzyPepsi
Teachers cannot be key workers if they are able to not attend work for 18 months+.

I am a teacher. I have been teaching vulnerable/keyworker's children in class since lockdown started. I have also spent every evening and weekend preparing and marking work for both the children in school and those working online (this is in my 'own time' and so unpaid, of course). Without school staff, the people that you seem to consider genuine key workers wouldn't be able to go to work at all. I am a key worker, and you are talking absolute rubbish.

Start a discussion, then hear all the reasons why it cannot be achieved at least in the short term if at all, then reject it. So you have an argument when parents complain about children being disadvantaged compared with those who finished schooling before the pandemic. Parents who would not want schools to disrupt when they like their summer holidays.

One possibility.

The disparity in provision between schools is a disgrace.

That's true, even when schools are open. I don't know why more parents haven't been kicking off about it before now. Possibly because they assume that their school is fine when what's going on is out of sight.

I started a thread about it back in June and got 54 responses. Threads bashing individual teachers run to hundreds of posts.

The education system is crumbling and parents are focusing on the wrong issue entirely.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3941702-Annoyed-your-kid-isn-t-having-zoom-lessons-or-school-contact-or-not-going-back-to-school-yet

it's upsetting when posters say teachers should be sacked for not agreeing to do even more hours!

Ignore the trolls, Thelma, that's not a genuine poster.

My daughter goes to an independent school and her school day has always been 8:35 - 5:30. But then school holidays are longer and there is no “homework “. They do get a bio break and something to eat.

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

All these ideas can only work if they are focused on children who need them. Small groups, tailored to their needs.

And this is where any support for me ends. Any child not in school has suffered and been disadvantaged. Why should a child whose parents have killed themselves to educate their children at home, not get this "additional" support over a child already with AEN or because their parents didn't support their children as fully (or at all)?

One (more) thing that Covid has done is to draw back the curtain on the true situation in our schools.
Some parents are horrified to see what those of us working in schools have known and been tolerating for years. Maybe we've done too good a job of working our socks off to try to make up the shortfalls and disguising the true picture.
I confess I don't know the answer - or rather, I do know that proper funding is one answer, but I doubt that will happen.

Why not resign before now, if things are indeed so intolerable for you

You know that many have resigned? That there are schools running whole year group classes in halls in some subjects because they can’t get replacement staff? That the Government has been offering incentives, tax free, amounting to £thousands for years and years in an attempt to incentivise people to train? That the Government continues to spend £thousands on advertising to get people to train on TV, radio, via the internet and on bus stop posters? That the average life of a teacher is now less than 5 years? That this pandemic has seen many 50 something teachers take their pensions and run? You are also aware that teachers have massive transferable skills and on the whole, do not struggle to find employment elsewhere?

You can mock us all you want but you seriously need to be careful what you wish for because I’d this pandemic has shown how under investment impacts the NHS, it is also clear that education is on the brink also. You want your kids educated by trained, motivated, astute professionals? Perhaps work with us, rather than against us.

@nursejekyll

The best approach would be to fund additional teachers to deliver catch up teaching sessions with ring fenced funding. Children with SEN will need specialist teaching. Anything else is just plugging holes and hoping for the best.

This is the solution. Put special project Teachers in schools to target small group and one to one learning and catch-up sessions. Literacy and numeracy skills focused on. Sports qualified staff too to add more after school clubs and sports groups. I would bet money that nothing will happen. Once the pandemic is over everything will go back to how it was before, kids wellness and inequality issues will just disappear in a puff of smoke overnight.

"Why not resign before now, if things are indeed so intolerable for you"

Yes, be careful. A cheap dig on the internet could have consequences.

@motherrunner

As a teacher my children are already in wraparound from 7.30-5pm and that’s with a 9-3.30 teaching day. If I’m to teach longer does that mean they’ll need to be in wraparound longer? They’ll be sleeping at school soon 🙄

8am to 6pm are totally normal childcare hours for those of us who work full time. Not saying you don't work full time, just making the point that it's normal.

I agree about disparity between schools, of opportunity and the gap between the advantaged and disadvantaged are all as old as the hills. None of it is new.

Covid has simply exacerbated existing problems. The government has never been able to solve the original issues and there’s zero reason to think a few loudly trumpeted schemes and findings will do now.

These children will just move through to the next phase of education and life. Their experience will have been a bit different from children their age form a few years ago, but they will move on.

Those who will come out of it best, will be those whose families have the will and the ability to help them with home learning and in terms of their overall life and educational experience...not just during Covid, but before and after too. It’s always been the same. People with interested and capable parents do well at school, in general terms. If you’re reading this thread and you’re in that category, your children will do fine and move through the stages of education and into life well.

Those who will struggle would have struggled anyway. If parents didn’t support education before and did t support it during Covid, they probably won’t after either. Sadly those children have the cards stacked against them and always have had. Covid really hasn’t started it off. Schools will be able to do a limited amount, but it really is very limited and just don’t have the power or ability to close those gaps.

But for most children, it really will be that they have all had disruption. Some have had better schooling than others.....but wasn’t that always the case and some went to schools which did a fab job before and some went to crap schools. Still the same.

[quote Yoshinori]@Theimanotlouise

Quit your job then.[/quote]
That will really help the children.