Are teachers more at risk from covid?

[notevenat20]

Did anyone listen to More or Less discuss this?

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000rvjr

What do you think?

Sarcasm obviously...

It's a scandal that so many workers are so badly protected against coronavirus. It's a scandal that ffp2/3 masks aren't standard for ALL patient facing roles. But it's ok to just talk about one workplace and how crap the safety measures are without it being a race to the bottom.

@Abraxan

Not sure I want teachers who disregard evidence in favour of anecdotal experience and feelings teaching my dc.

I never said I was disregarding it, just that it's sometimes difficult when it doesn't reflect the infection levels you've seen first hand. My own experience has shown that amongst my own acquaintances the school staff have been far more greatly affected in terms of catching covid than the groups of other workers. I accept this may not necessarily be reflected across the country.

I haven't seen or read the data form this programme.
Did it include all school staff as a whole, rather than separating them into different groups as previous data collection did?
I assume it looked as September to December separately to pre summer - I think I'm right in thinking it did this time.

The programme was looking at the exact data that NASUWT had used in TES to say that teachers were at more risk. It wasn't different data. So yes Sept-Dec. What they were scrutinising was how that data had come to those conclusions.

First, they used only 3 areas in UK, all of which had higher than average infection rates, but then they were comparing it to the general population for the whole country.

Second, the data was collated differently. Leeds City Council said they collected teachers who were suspected has having covid, as in being off school NOT positive tests. They also said it was very possible that some were double counted due to the way it was collected. They didn't collect it for the purpose it was being used.

I have no desire to send teachers back to schools before it is safe. My only beef is with people misusing data. That is all

Theluckiest that is very scary data

If taxi drivers were concerned, they would fight for their rights. If factory workers were concerned, they would fight for their rights. If they are not concerned, so be it or perhaps you could help them with a campaign? As a middle-aged teacher, I am concerned after hearing stories like @Abraxan’s and I will fight for my right to work as safely as possible during a global pandemic, especially as so many people have been given the luxury of working safely from home. Alternatively, I will continue to work from home and keep myself safe.

For those of you who would like me to base my decision on the data quoted within the broadcast, you should also consider the phrase ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’. I prefer to work on what I see as my distrust of this government and their messages is now very high.You all remember schools are safe, schools are not safe, schools are safe but full of vectors of infection...I’ll make my own call, thanks.

Even if I am being foolish using my own experiences to guide my decisions, rather than relying on the ‘data’, I should probably be given the vaccine to help with my mental health so I feel less anxious about returning to work. Mental health is as important as physical health, isn’t it? And the added advantage is that my physical health will be protected too!

We’re more likely to get it than people who are able to work jobs that aren’t public facing, or which are actually the fabled “covid secure”. Classrooms are not exactly great environments to be in when schools are open as normal. We’re far more likely to get it than people who wfh. Not more likely to die, though, I don’t think.

Full Fact also looked at this. It said that it is possible that teachers may be at higher risk of infection than the general population, especially when schools are open and other workplaces are not. But other sources suggest that teachers may face an average, or lower-than-average, risk of infection.

@Xerochrysum

It's obvious without even thinking about it. I don't know why some people are still questioning this.

Because the programme said that they weren't.

Supermarket workers, warehouse workers and lower paid jobs were far more at risk.

No I missed it but I like More or Less. Will listen later

Anecdata isn't data. Any individual's stories are just that: an individual's stories. It is really important to use this hook, however sad some experiences are

Supermarket workers, warehouse workers and lower paid jobs were far more at risk.

There is a category called "elementary workers" who seem most at risk.

If taxi drivers were concerned, they would fight for their rights. If factory workers were concerned, they would fight for their rights.

This is particularly tone-deaf and oblivious to your own privileges and advantages, even by MN standards.

Frodont, so you believe everything the programme says. Good for you.

@SavannahMiasMum

Teachers are no more at risk than many others in the world though self entitled opinions they often have like the police and many others probably will force someone in charge to bow to there demands sadly

Teachers haven’t shut schools. The government did. As far as I’m aware no schools shut due to the staff refusing to work. A few shut because staff sickness made it unsafe to work. Please stop the narrative that it is somehow teachers that have shut school to all but KW kids.

Teachers have had a moan about not feeling safe. They haven’t shut anything and they haven’t prevented anything from reopening.

@mumsneedwine

Teachers were angry because we can see what is happening around us. I have 2 dead colleagues in my school, 1 in next nearest and 2 in me one - unless you're a medic I don't know any other profession that has a statistics like that. I know several long term covid sufferers, one a 19 year old, one a 16 year old who now needs a lung transplant and several colleagues who are still suffering from fatigue. We are angry but reassured as we know what we have lived through. Using data from March to October would show that teachers were no more at risk. From Sept to Dec the one bit of research said they were 333% more likely to catch covid. Sorry if that doesn't fit with the narrative.

Yep school staff are more likely to catch covid. Looking at the data no argument there. It does then stand to reason that move would be hospitalised and especially the over 50s and cev. Though other occupations have seen much worse during the pandemic.

Please don't compare school staff to other occupations though. I don't know why the teachers on mumsnet do that. It isn't a death or long covid competition. TFL have seen far more deaths than most. Never mind the poor NHS staff. If you do want to compare but that is a pointless nasty argument.

Teachers over 50 or cev will get vaccinations as soon as possible. The over 40s not long after that. Hopefully vaccination hubs will get teachers on a spare doses list too. They have done that in with police and firemen in some places. More likely now because we have some proof it slows transmission.

@Hardbackwriter

If taxi drivers were concerned, they would fight for their rights. If factory workers were concerned, they would fight for their rights.

This is particularly tone-deaf and oblivious to your own privileges and advantages, even by MN standards.

Agree

@BustopherPonsonbyJones

If taxi drivers were concerned, they would fight for their rights. If factory workers were concerned, they would fight for their rights. If they are not concerned, so be it or perhaps you could help them with a campaign? As a middle-aged teacher, I am concerned after hearing stories like *@Abraxan*’s and I will fight for my right to work as safely as possible during a global pandemic, especially as so many people have been given the luxury of working safely from home. Alternatively, I will continue to work from home and keep myself safe.

For those of you who would like me to base my decision on the data quoted within the broadcast, you should also consider the phrase ‘lies, damned lies and statistics’. I prefer to work on what I see as my distrust of this government and their messages is now very high.You all remember schools are safe, schools are not safe, schools are safe but full of vectors of infection...I’ll make my own call, thanks.

Even if I am being foolish using my own experiences to guide my decisions, rather than relying on the ‘data’, I should probably be given the vaccine to help with my mental health so I feel less anxious about returning to work. Mental health is as important as physical health, isn’t it? And the added advantage is that my physical health will be protected too!

I work in a factory and your comments are coming from a place of complete privilege to be honest. Factory workers CANNOT work from home. So if we complain, we have no jobs.

My factory workplace has had more Covid cases (19) than my DS's school (2, both in students and not staff).

There are many jobs that are high risk. I do agree that teaching is one of them.

However, teachers have far more job protection than us who work in factories/drive taxis. There are big teaching unions standing up for teachers rights. Teachers have the ability to work from home right now and still get paid.

The reason us factory workers aren't complaining is that we are dispensable. Often earning minimum wage, we can't afford to join unions. We can't work from home. We are easily replaceable as we are often unskilled. We don't get sick pay.

We cannot afford to ruffle feathers and lose our jobs.

@Xerochrysum

Frodont, so you believe everything the programme says. Good for you.

Well yes. It's usually pretty accurate and fair.

If taxi drivers were concerned, they would fight for their rights. If factory workers were concerned, they would fight for their rights

Awful middle class privilege showing there.

The thing is, if basic safety measures known to work (easy and cheap ones like masks) are not used in a workplace like schools, with a workforce which has a union and is public sector and therefore offered more protections than many other workplaces normally, then workers of all kinds across the UK should tremble.

This is an erosion of the very idea that employers are responsible for worker safety. That if there are easy, cheap mitigations available against known hazards, they should be put in place at the very least.

If we didn't understand how the virus spread, if we didn't know the science about the best ways to mitigate against airborne transmission, that's one thing. Knowing that there are mitigations (some of them easy, some of them less so). Knowing they work and could save lives and reduce infection. Knowing most other countries in the world are employing some if not all of them. Yet doing nothing.

Utter disregard for risk mitigation in the workplace, it's really chilling.

Yes, lots of industries have frankly appalling safety records. But if teachers can't even hold their employer to account for really obvious safety breaches during a high profile pandemic, there is fuck all chance that anything will ever be done to improve those workplaces either.

What a masterstroke of those responsible to get people to argue about who has it worse rather than saying - why the fuck are so many workplaces so utterly shit in the UK and maybe there's a link to the fact we have one of the highest death rates?

@Hardbackwriter @Truelymadlydeeplysomeonesmum
I am from a solid working class background, with family members working in some of the occupations you mentioned, I am deeply offended that you seem to think they are unable to stand up for their own rights if they chose to do so. I can assure you that they are incredibly eloquent, have considerable backbone and a long tradition of fighting for their rights when they wish to do so. It is why I don’t intend to go down without a fight. Your privilege and advantages are showing in your condescending attitude to those you consider lower on the social scale than yourself. Have a look at your condescending, prejudiced attitudes, please.

And I don’t think the teachers were comparing the occupations. I think it was hardbackwriter and others who did that.

Don’t make schools safe, don’t give teachers the vaccine but stop bloody moaning about home schooling and don’t be surprised when your children are being ‘taught’ by 21-year-old cover supervisors.

And instead of holding those truly responsible to account (all of whom are gorging themselves on their profits and riches), let's all argue about who has the tiniest slice of the tiny shit pie we've all been given to eat.

@IloveJKRowling

And instead of holding those truly responsible to account (all of whom are gorging themselves on their profits and riches), let's all argue about who has the tiniest slice of the tiny shit pie we've all been given to eat.

Totally agree. I say it time and time again people need to stop complaining. It is pigging insulting to school staff and also to other occupations that are working in unsafe conditions. Wish everyone would stop these stupid arguments.

BustopherPonsonbyJones

Quite frankly I got bored half way through reading your post mentioning me. You show an amazing lack of awareness of how you sound.

No teachers in my family or that I have worked along side would say half the crap that comes out of your mouth. Frankly if you are a teacher. Crack on and speak to your HR department in the morning.