Are teachers more at risk from covid?

[notevenat20]

Did anyone listen to More or Less discuss this?

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000rvjr

What do you think?

There were loads of examples of non-healthcare professions that have suffered more deaths, more hospitalisation and more infection. Male catering managers was one example. Also public transport workers.

@mumsneedwine listen to the programme. There is no ulterior motive in it, but looking at how data is compiled.

Using examples of pool you know is anecdotal, and not useful in making statements about overall risk.

It isn't 'my' data!

From a selfish perspective I'd love DH to have the vaccine. But if I'm not being selfish I think it would be an absolute disgrace if he were given the vaccine well ahead of a taxi driver, takeaway worker or factory worker of the same age - or even than one older than him - essentially because he has a vocal union and because, it would seem, people care much less about those in the lowest-paid occupations.

I can see how a teacher is less at risk of death from covid, but that’s because most teachers are young? Don’t see many over 65year old teachers?
However, their risk of catching covid is high. Probably one of the highest for any occupation, as they don’t wear any form of ppe or have capacity for social distancing. So, for that reason steps should be taken to minimises their risk of catching covid regardless of their outcome from the disease

Yes teachers looked like they had normal rates. Because other professions were lumped together. School staff were all split up into different categories. And they took the data from Match to October so most schools were not fully open for most of it. TAs are so at risk. As are any first alders.
How can anyone think that kids spread it in the community but miraculously don't spread it in schools. Use common sense.

Its very simple. If I'm not safe to be in the same room as my mum for even a minute, I'm not safe to be in a poorly ventilated small room stuffed with 30 bodies, who are incapable of following hygiene rules correctly.

I'm 53 with a heart condition. Not got tests done so not on any list - but I have medication to control it until I can get tests, which have now been delayed over a year.
There are lots of teachers like me. Older, slight health conditions, shielding relatives.

We would just like the same protection that other people have that work in close contact with hundreds of people every day. Masks, Perspex screen, social distancing. We had none of that so we'd quite like the vaccine.

I listened to the programme carefully, it was extremely interesting.

I would urge anyone who works in a school, like I do, to listen.

@BustopherPonsonbyJones

I’m not reassured and will want a vaccine before I return. It isn’t much to ask really.

Same here. Another non 20/30 year old teacher. Too young for groups 1-9 though (only just!)

I've seen the data but it doesn't match my anecdotal experience personally.

No one in my school caught covid between March and September, as far as we know.

Approx 75% of school staff at my infant school caught Covid in October-November. Almost all were most likely caught in school. The staff were socially distanced from one another, staff rooms weren't open, etc . We have classes of 30 and year groups of 90 - they were bubbled and adults SD where they could. Obviously in classrooms there were often 2 adults. Interestingly in many cases the TA and the teacher didn't catch covid at the same times. My role means I work across the whole school, so was mixing with 270 children weekly. Due to the age of the children there was no SD and no masks. Small Victorian style classrooms with small or limited opening windows, but open all day where they could be opened.

A number were ill enough to need longer than 2 weeks of work. Some have long lasting effects such as aching joints, fatigue, brain fog still now.

I was in hospital due to covid complications, and had 7 weeks off. It's been over 3 months now and I am still tired, my joints still ache though s steroid injection has helped (have arthritis and not being able to take meds with covid meant I had a huge flare up), have breathlessness and achy chest on increased exertion, brain fog, insomnia, etc. I've been left with very high blood pressure and now take two extra meds a day for it - no guarantee this was covid but I haven't had high blood pressure before, it's checked every 3 months and 3 weeks previous it was normal.

I don't deny teaching and school staff (important that LSA and TAs are included in these numbers, as well as general school staff, rather than separating them out which some of the statistics have done) have a lower risk of death and even hospitalisation, but I'm not hugely convinced by lower rates of catching it tbh. But that's marred by my own experience at school.

One of my family and friends, in other jobs, have caught covid that we are aware of (no other positive tests) bar my grandma before her death - she caught it in hospital. In dh's office of over 100 staff they've had 3 isolated cases, definitely caught outside of work.

So, yes the statistics may say this but my anecdotal,experience r]tells a different story,

Forgot to add that I am CV.
I am currently wfh due to my health and my current role allows for it. I also have a very understanding head teacher.

I went back in September with no protective measures in place.
When i returned in September we'd been told we could wear masks if we wanted, but the governors weren't keen and it didn't happen. When I rented after being ill I wore a mask every day. I only removed it when I was sat at a distance at the front of the room and teaching phonics.

I will have to return when schools open for all - as infants, it's likely to be early March. I won't have been vaccinated by then.I know I've had covid but my consultant says there's no way to guarantee I can't catch it again - and I now have two separate health issues which would both make me CV individually. I really can't deal with catching it again, but there's little I can do to reduce the risk in return, so I have to hope that I actually do have some antibodies.

@mumsneedwine if you listen, the data was taken from Sept-Dec too.

I listened. Didn't agree with a lot of it or the methods used. Statistics can be manipulated in many ways. What I know is I have lost friends. And see the devastation that schools have suffered. If you haven't then you are very lucky.

I have 2 dead colleagues in my school, 1 in next nearest and 2 in me one (sic)

That's 5 out of the 90? or so that have died nationally. It's a very unlucky circle to be in, exceptionally concentrated.

Other thing is, teachers have other lives... they have kids, they shop, they go swimming or EO2HO. It's not like in school is only place on planet earth they could possibly meet covid.

I wouldn't want to be an age 60+ male taxi driver or security guard right now.

@mumsneedwine

I listened. Didn't agree with a lot of it or the methods used. Statistics can be manipulated in many ways. What I know is I have lost friends. And see the devastation that schools have suffered. If you haven't then you are very lucky.

What specific criticisms did you have of their use of the data or the data they used? As I said, it seemed thorough and logical to me (though I am a big more or less fan, so will admit to that as a bias!) but totally willing to consider criticisms or ways in which it was flawed (unless they're 'my anecdote trumps the data', which isn't really an argument)

@Hardbackwriter
The issue is that your opinion is irrelevant if YOU are not expected to work in schools. If WE don’t feel safe and use OUR unions and/or other options to either stay away from school until WE feel safe or WE are given the vaccine, then the decision is OURS. I chose to ignore your data and focus on what I know (having seen and experienced it) to inform my decision. Your opinion won’t stop me taking action based on my assessment - but my decision will impact your child’s education.

Not sure I want teachers who disregard evidence in favour of anecdotal experience and feelings teaching my dc.

I'm not suggesting schools should be closed right now. I am in support of teachers. However, I am a data nerd and a More or Less fan. They do not manipulate data, in fact they highlight where others have manipulated or misunderstood data. The data used by NASUWT was selected from high infection areas but compared to general, national population. So it isn't a good indicator.

I suggest you read anything written by David Spiegelhalter on how data is used. He's brilliant

Not sure I want teachers who disregard evidence in favour of anecdotal experience and feelings teaching my dc.

Are you going to home school them, just to be safe?

Not sure I want teachers who disregard evidence in favour of anecdotal experience and feelings teaching my dc.

I never said I was disregarding it, just that it's sometimes difficult when it doesn't reflect the infection levels you've seen first hand. My own experience has shown that amongst my own acquaintances the school staff have been far more greatly affected in terms of catching covid than the groups of other workers. I accept this may not necessarily be reflected across the country.

I haven't seen or read the data form this programme.
Did it include all school staff as a whole, rather than separating them into different groups as previous data collection did?
I assume it looked as September to December separately to pre summer - I think I'm right in thinking it did this time.

More than care home staff? More than taxi drivers (Uber etc)? More than workers in chilled food production facilities? I'm not sure.

Care home staff are being vaccinated. Taxi drivers can wear masks (not all school staff can) and can put a screen between them and the passengers. I agree with you about workers in chilled food production facilities though.

Teachers are no more at risk than many others in the world though self entitled opinions they often have like the police and many others probably will force someone in charge to bow to there demands sadly

It's always a difficult discussion to have. THere will always be someone saying 'yea but people who work in shops', and 'how about taxi drivers' etc etc.

A secondary school teacher can be in the same room for an hour at a time with up to 130 pupils a day. Thats 5 days a week. I doubt very much that a taxi driver takes that many people in a day. And shop workers may cross the path of many people, but they wear masks, and they are not standing next to each other for an hour. People who are 'anti-teachers' (god knows how many of them are on Mumsnet) will never acknowledge just how perilous being a teacher is. I work in a secondary schools and they are hotbeds for the virus.

Something else that's forgotten is that a significant majority of teachers especially in primary, but in secondary schools too, are women who statistically are less likely to get a severe form of covid. However, they are just as susceptible as men of catching it.

It's an absolute lie to say that teachers are at the same risk as the rest of the population to catch Covid.

@SavannahMiasMum

Teachers are no more at risk than many others in the world though self entitled opinions they often have like the police and many others probably will force someone in charge to bow to there demands sadly

Their knowledge of homophones is great though.

Dear UK teachers,

Great news! You are no more at risk than other really badly protected professions with woeful safety records. Among workers in the country with one of the top death and disability rates in the world (from covid), you are equally badly off!

At least you can console yourself that there are lots of others equally badly affected! Yay!

And in further good news, it seems that basic safety measures are now optional in schools. There are no measures at all to prevent airborne spread of an airborne disease. Employers seemingly no longer need to even make a rudimentary attempt to take cheap, proven, easy steps to mitigate against known hazards.

Hopefully soon we can get rid of fire regulations, the requirement for hard hats on building sites, and maybe even seat belts. Then the statistics for deaths among teaching staff will look EVEN BETTER!

@lljkk

I have 2 dead colleagues in my school, 1 in next nearest and 2 in me one (sic)

That's 5 out of the 90? or so that have died nationally. It's a very unlucky circle to be in, exceptionally concentrated.

Other thing is, teachers have other lives... they have kids, they shop, they go swimming or EO2HO. It's not like in school is only place on planet earth they could possibly meet covid.

I wouldn't want to be an age 60+ male taxi driver or security guard right now.

90? Is that the 90 'professional teachers' recorded as dying from the virus? And I believe it's higher than 90 isn't it? At least according to the attached table.

The 90 (or whatever the figure) that doesn't include TAs or other staff working in schools who have also died and probably caught it at school? The number of which makes the overall picture in schools a lot darker and more worrying?

No? Didn't think so.

Lies, damn lies and statistics