What do EU nationals think of the vaccines mess?

[Frazzled2207]

I’m a committed remainer. But the EU really did mess up last night. More seriously they are not in a good position right now with regards vaccine supply. Lots of anti-Eu posts here right now from committed remainers like me.

Just wondering what EU citizens make of all this and is there any bad feeling towards the UK? Do you think the EU has a right to some of the UK’s vaccine supply? Are people angry at the fact that the UK was able to secure more vaccines more quickly? Or are we coming across as selfish idiots?
Generally curious and am not here to start an argument

@SilverGlitterBaubles I agree. Shoddy of the EU. Unfortunately Northern Ireland is caught between the UK which doesn't give much of a shit about it, and the EU which would happily encourage it to rejoin Ireland.

However in the Brexit negotiations the EU has been thoroughly on the side of Northern Ireland and the peace process.

*Well it could (justifiably) be interpreted as inefficiency but one could also say that its just the nature of the beast that it take 27 countries longer to agree something than one government on its own.

Thats the price you pay for being part of a group. But there are also benefits like being able to stand up to the might of Facebook, Amazon and Google with regard to paying tax for example.

Its swings and roundabouts.*

And completly irrelevant in this context.

If Spain is suffering from a lack of vaccine, the fault lies with the ponderous procurement and approval process of the EU. Shouldn't they have emergency procedures in place for this sort of thing? Why is it Britain's responsibility to ride to the rescue?

[quote whatisthislifesofullofcare]@MadCatLady71

A high ranking attorney in Belgium has already been recorded saying that the EU have no case.[/quote]
I’m pretty certain that over the next few weeks high ranking attorneys from all over the place will express all manner of opinions. The high ranking commercial lawyer I live with both think it’s far from cut and dried, but the EU certainly has a case to make. I’m sure that ultimately AZ and the EU will come to some kind of compromise - it’s in nobody’s interests to maintain hostilities.

But contract disputes happen all the time. One way or another it will get resolved. It’s just unfortunate that it has blown up in this way (and the over-reaction is definitely the fault of the Commission). Hopefully over the next few days it will all die down again. We should have put Barnier in charge - he’d never have flown off the handle like this

Pre ordering loads of vaccines was hedging our bets and it's been a good plan. We obviously won't just sit on them if we don't need them. I expect we shall magnanimously give them to others and revel in the good publicity. But not yet. Right now we are in a worse position than others and we need to vaccinate our own population first.

We are contributing a lot to the Covax system for developing countries too. The EU meanwhile tried to get AZ to supply them at less than cost price which is a shitty move given that it's a not for profit venture.

Leaving a gap before the second dose is also a gamble. Could turn out to be a really great idea (get more people covered more quickly) or it could turn out to be a really shit plan if in fact one dose doesn't work.

I think it's brave but a good plan myself having looked at the data but it sure is a gamble.

I am no fan of Boris and the Tories generally but in some cases they have made some good and brave decisions which is necessary in this level of crisis.

AZ set up global production of their vaccine at cost. It is manufactured on every continent to ensure supplies could be as fair as possible. They could have made millions and been greedy, but they did their best to ensure it was available to all. Think the EU would do well to remember that.
Was interested to be told last night by a friend in the know that a component of the Pfizer jab is made in Yorkshire. Trade barriers are going to make this situation so much worse.

Perhaps read the links then and you will see they delayed on ordering, they argued over the price, the failed to prepare, they failed with the French vaccine - how many failures would it take for you to admit the reason that the EU will be initially be behind UK is not down to AZ - if you looked at this link you'll see AZ are saying they are supplying 17% of their Feb supply to just 5% of the world population in the EU.

However, EU can't wait for production problems or work with AZ to up the production, which is what will happen. This will die down and the supply will work through, but no-one - no-one at all will forget or trust the EU again. The scales have fallen from so many eyes.

They are throwing toys of the pram to distract their home populations from their failures. Honestly, after reading the link you think that AZ are at fault, you don't think France and Germany saying the vaccine is ineffective is damaging to role out in poorer countries? They are behaving appallingly.

"As soon as we get an approval by EMA, in the next few days, we will be shipping at least three million doses immediately to Europe,” Soriot said.

“The target is to deliver 17 million doses by February.”

Europe is on track to receive 17% of AstraZeneca’s global production in February “for a population that is 5% of the world population”, he noted.

www.euractiv.com/section/health-consumers/news/brussels-doesnt-buy-astrazenecas-assurances-it-doesnt-sell-eu-doses-to-other-countries/

I expect you won't though and still say well a contract - that's why you feel like you're getting a hard time it's bizarre how you misunderstand facts but claim everyone else is wrong.

No-one is fooled it is just a tantrum to distract - the people in Europe are fed up - you may have a bunch of mates that don't think EU have mishandled it but I can assure you there are many, many other EU citizens that disagree.

And completly irrelevant in this context.

If Spain is suffering from a lack of vaccine, the fault lies with the ponderous procurement and approval process of the EU. Shouldn't they have emergency procedures in place for this sort of thing? Why is it Britain's responsibility to ride to the rescue?

Mmm, to be fair, not sure Boris is much of a horseman ... .

Seriously , no one expects or anticipates the UK to ride to the rescue. As I said earlier, this dispute boils down to an interpretation of contact law.

@MesmerisingMinerva my post above was addressing Minerva's post and suggest she reads up on the fact that AZ are delivering and working through to improve production.

No it boils down to the EU failure.

Vaccinations are progressing nicely in our region for over 70’s. Cases stable, schools remaining open and most people I know don’t want the vaccine anyway. Obviously this story is running everywhere but not with the burning intensity of Mumsnet.

Hasn't this virus made people so nationalistic. The charts showing the vaccination rates in different countries, like a football team league. I don't know if a global approach would be better.

Having read all this it appears the majority of those in the EU believe either there is no problem or AZ or the UK are to blame for all issues🤔

I will save my opinion for a different thread 😁

AZ told the EU their schedule was not guaranteed. They agreed to a best endeavours clause. No set dates just an intention to try. Whoever it was who's claiming that the law doesn't take into account who ordered first is very wrong. The UK paid for that supply and production system that is only just, after months of delays, getting anywhere near full production. The EU paid for their system but paid less, ergo their system is probably not going to be as efficient AND it's at least three months behind ours.

The AZ-EU Contract states clearly that the UK factories will not be available for production until the UKs FIRST order is fulfilled. Very Clearly.

Truth is the EU specifically asked for the same delivery schedule as the UK, and were told that wasn't achievable, they signed a contract based on best endeavours, the UK has a contract with firm guarantee's, they understood that and now decide it's not good enough.

It's just bitterness on the EU's part, bitterness and fear.

The fact that this is a non-profit endeavour makes it even more appalling.

@pinkhousesarebest

Vaccinations are progressing nicely in our region for over 70’s. Cases stable, schools remaining open and most people I know don’t want the vaccine anyway. Obviously this story is running everywhere but not with the burning intensity of Mumsnet.

Pinkhouses, are you in France? What are the reasons for most people not wanting the vaccine? It seems very strange to me

@EachDubh I'm curious to hear what you have to say. One sided argument are boring and I'm not decided where I stand on this.
It looks to me that none of the parties have acted correctly.

It is exactly why it took so long - they've approved it yesterday - they should have spent the last months preparing suitable processing and sites with AZ - they have put their eggs in in with French vaccine which failed. That's the story - it's rather negative against the EU, but that's the truth or why the EU are failing to delivery to their citizens. Appalling blame game from them for own inadequacies.

No. Wrong on both your points.

The EU had already paid towards the production of the AZ vaccine. Production and plants started months ago. Remember that the UK approved the vaccine in late December and rolled out within days - do you imagine that the vaccine wasn't manufactured until then? Do you?

And this fucking STUPID Sun-reader, Facebook hun, football team supporter LIE that the EU only invested in the French Pasteur vaccine.

Here is the truth. The EU have purchased:

AstraZeneca: 400 million doses
Sanofi-GSK: 300 million doses
Johnson & Johnson: 400 million doses
CureVac: 405 million doses
Moderna: 160 million doses
Novovax: 200 million doses

The jingoistic shit on here is unbelievable.

We are contributing a lot to the Covax system for developing countries too. The EU meanwhile tried to get AZ to supply them at less than cost price which is a shitty move given that it's a not for profit venture.

Quite.

Oops. Forfgot. The EU have also purchased:

600 million Pfizer doses.

From the mouth of the CEO of AZ - and backed up by the EU's contract - he says he was open with EU that he'd already entered into a contractual commitment with UK and all he could offer was best efforts and the contract was clear on that - the UK's wasn't as ambiguous (posted another link to article on Matt Hancock ensuring wording of contract). So there is no doubt the EU are deflecting and I don't think many are falling for it, sure a few die hards on here..but, not in the real world.

Earlier this week AstraZeneca CEO Pascal Soriot was defending his company by explaining they signed up to a “best effort” in the agreement with the EU.

“… we didn’t commit with the EU, by the way. It’s not a commitment we have to Europe: it’s a best effort, we said we are going to make our best effort. The reason why we said that is because Europe at the time wanted to be supplied more or less at the same time as the UK, even though the contract was signed three months later. So we said, “ok, we’re going to do our best, we’re going to try, but we cannot commit contractually because we are three months behind UK”.”

The agreement appears to backs up this interpretation, saying…

“AstraZeneca has committed to use its Best Reasonable Efforts (as defined below) to build capacity to manufacture 300 million Doses of the Vaccine, at no profit and no loss to AstraZeneca, at the total cost currently estimated to be [REDACTED] Euros for distribution within the EU [REDACTED] (the “Initial Europe Doses”), with an option for the Commission, acting on behalf of the Participating Member States, to order an additional 100 million Doses (the “Optional Doses”).”

And goes on to define Best Reasonable Efforts as meaning:

“(a) in the case of AstraZeneca, the activities and degree of effort that a company of similar size with a similarly-sized infrastructure and similar resources as AstraZeneca would undertake or use in the development and manufacture of a Vaccine at the relevant stage of development or commercialization having regard to the urgent need for a Vaccine to end a global pandemic”

@pinkhousesarebest

Vaccinations are progressing nicely in our region for over 70’s. Cases stable, schools remaining open and most people I know don’t want the vaccine anyway. Obviously this story is running everywhere but not with the burning intensity of Mumsnet.

Yes, it’s very like that here. Lockdown not too onerous, shops and schools open, hospitals coping, infections seemingly under control (or at least, being maintained at a manageable level). This story hasn’t had the same level of media attention, simply because the vaccination programme as a whole seems pretty low key (and is moving at snail’s pace anyway because of the high levels of cynicism).

It’s the south of France. We respond to everything with a shrug and a ‘tant pis’.

@DamnUserName21 thank you for that link, very interesting.
However it isn’t the reality on the ground in Canada as they have only so far approved 2 vaccines, they haven’t approved the AstraZeneca one, and they are having supply issues getting the Pfizer one from Europe.
However I think that although the government is still really concerned about rates here, the numbers are low in comparison, still under 10,000 deaths. Canada has also imposed much tighter travel restrictions to control Covid, so I think the longer roll out time will be ok.
I’m glad the UK are doing well with the roll out and hope it continues, I just hate the whole us/them we got in first argument, being applied to a global pandemic and seriously worry about how some countries will get out of this problem.
I’m probably an unrealistic hippy.

[quote MesmerisingMinerva]@tara671 that is bollocks. That is not the reason it took so long.[/quote]
It's one of the reasons.

Plus the EU trying to do it for 27 countries whilst others did it for themselves.

The issue with manufacture now is the delay meant they didn't have their site in Eu up and running and hadn't ironed out the problems the uk had before rolling out vaccine. They'll get there but the started behind the uk so realistically cannot expect to be alongside or in front of them.

It’s the south of France. We respond to everything with a shrug and a ‘tant pis’.

Haha!

@MadCatLady71

I’m in France and as far as I can tell the only people talking about it are the expat Brits. It’s not a massive media story the way it is the U.K. Most people here (I’m on the Med - it could well be different in Paris) lost interest in Brexit and goings-on in the U.K. a long time ago.

It’s obvious from the contract that Astra Zeneca over-promised and can’t deliver. And the way they have dealt with it has benefited the U.K. and disadvantaged the EU. That said, I do think the Commission has handled the aftermath badly - the U.K. is contractually entitled to all the doses it has received, technically it’s not their problem that AZ has screwed the EU (even if the ethics, if not the legality, are up for debate).

I do think it is looking increasingly unlikely that the EU and U.K. are going to be ‘special friends’ in the way that was bandied around during Brexit negotiations - but I’m not sure that was ever likely anyway.

In Belgium this doesn't even seem to make the news, only that the AX vaccine is now approved and we will get some next week.

Will check the Dutch speaking news.